|
Post by herosrest on Jul 12, 2023 10:35:10 GMT -6
If your view is that Camp supported or was even aware of what is now lower fords theory then you are wasting everyones' time. Camp put troops to the river, Deep Coulee, GGH and back through the trail up to Calhoun. He had an idea that troops were east of Calhoun on the ridges. Hairy Moccasin's 1911 interview with Walter Camp, makes what you give to be impossible. Beyond the practicalities of varied interpretted accounts from Indian participants, given for example that Camp understood the HM interpretation to be unreliable and got LOTS of stuff wrong, then there is the problem of Officer's famialiarity with the scouts. Benteen's battalion did not know them from buffalo chips on 25th June, 1876; and hardly ever afterwards or at all. Let's look at this. The Crow scouts were in advance during the marches down Rosebud. They were camped with the HQ. This is specifically the six Crows and Bouyer. They joined the regiment at Rosebud from Far West. Benteen, Godfrey, pick any of them you like outside Officer's attending Custer - did not have the slightest clue which scout was what or who, because they never saw them to know. There is very little doubt that Benteen met or was guided by three scouts but no way was it Crow scouts and no way was it Hairy Moccasin.Didn't happen, i'm afraid. Kanipe indicated to Camp where Custer sent him back from. He was with his company when he got the job. He could see the dust of the packtrain and rode towards it, sighting Benteen when he got down to a view of him.
|
|
|
Post by johnson1941 on Jul 12, 2023 10:52:56 GMT -6
You talking to me? When have I ever said or inferred any of this Camp re: a lower fords theory? You must be referring to another poster.(?) READ THE POSTS. For now I just want to get them off the bluffs. I love how everyone who was there was wrong - but you're not. Too funny. YOU REALLY need to re-read what you think you know, and re-think your theories - you are likely messing up your timing because you are using faulty notions! And please - at least TRY to back those notions up with some concrete i.e. specific evidence, not just YOUR opinions...you do VERY little of that. The crows meeting benteen near ford A is quite well explained...by the crows, by Benteen, by other people who were actually there. Also cool - WMRH did indeed tell Camp about Custer watching all of Reno fight from the bluffs, AND also says he went all the way to Ford B...what a trip (& amount of time) to get back to meet Benteen near Ford A! "In regard to Benteen’s statement about meeting the Crows, he is very clear as to the time and place, and is corroborated by Godfrey and several of the enlisted men - and by Goes Ahead and White Man Runs Him himself. Benteen met the three Crows on the first rise of the bluffs north of the mouth of Sundance Creek. This is 1600 or 1800 feet north of Ford “A,” and about I 1/2 miles, in an air line, south of Reno Hill (where Reno was corralled two days). Godfrey stated to me personally that they … met the Crows here and that he … rode up to one of the Crows and tried to talk to him. … Both White Man Runs Him and Goes Ahead give clear statements about meeting Benteen’s command … in fact White Man Runs Him goes into detail about it." And yet another of those witnesses (Gibson) describing Benteen and CROWS, and WMRH himself... Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jul 12, 2023 11:05:12 GMT -6
Well......... All of the Reno fight was no time at all.
There is another Camp map and when I dig it up, i'll link or post it.
Regards.
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jul 12, 2023 11:10:41 GMT -6
The most interesting place on that battlefield is the area where the culvert carries battle road over the ravine at the mouth of Deep Coulee just above Greasy Grass Hill. I'll see if I can find a n image. That terrain explains the circuitous route shown by Curtis on his map to move around the terrain. I assume there were a few BH in there putting up a resistance. This is what White Shield observed since he had no view up MTC.
I think there'a an image on Friends....
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jul 12, 2023 11:18:39 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jul 12, 2023 11:31:13 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jul 12, 2023 11:51:46 GMT -6
I'll give an idea of the sort of thing which happened with W.M. Camp which became his reason for multiple follow ups and mailed interviews. According to Peter Thompson, he and Watson got into a firefight on a ford. Camp heard about this one way or another and until he met Thompson (on the battlefield, I believe) it was Camp's firm conviction that PT was at Ford B. Of course, as we all know, that is not so and he was at Thompson's Ford in underneath the bluffs with a carried round jammed in his weapon as one of the Sioux was shooting at him from across the water. I've considered this for a great title on the battle - Madman Across the Water. Who knows. Camp kept plugging away and got there in the end.
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jul 12, 2023 13:05:05 GMT -6
Eye-witness to Custer's route Company C observer of the advance disappearing from view, whilst able to view events in the valley. Clear the Court!
|
|
|
Post by johnson1941 on Jul 12, 2023 13:05:56 GMT -6
Great pics thanks! Shoot - I just read a bit in Camp re: asking scouts - Hairy Moccasin - if the soldier they ran into on their way back to Benteen could have been Thompson. (they say No) WMC was definitely investigating his story! I'll have to keep my eyes out for what else he has to say. And yes, parts of Peter's tail makes much more sense if he went down the bluffs (and not down MTC like goofy Astonisher stuck in). PT mentions some Indian feature he tried to take cover behind- love to know where that was! Thanks for the link - I have a pdf of the belle fourchhe bee article - haven't read it in a bit - will re-visit. Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by johnson1941 on Jul 12, 2023 13:12:52 GMT -6
You better hold on to your gavel - tight. Thompson mentions within a half-mile of reaching the bluffs, they could see the village and men cheered - jives very well with Martin & Kanipe & Camp and Weir Hill / SSR area. He too was left behind as the gang went over the hill. "We soon gained the top of the bluffs where a view of the surrounding country was obtained. The detail of Company F which was sent to investigate the teepee now passed by us on their way to the front with the report that it contained a dead Indian and such articles as were deemed necessary for him on his journey to the “Happy Hunting Grounds.” About a half mile further on we came in sight of the Indian village, and it was a truly imposing sight to anyone who had not seen anything like it before. For about three miles on the left bank of the river the teepees were stretched, the white canvas gleaming in the sunlight. Beyond the village was a black mass of ponies grazing on the short green grass. When the companies came in sight of the village they gave the regular charging yell and urged their horses into a gallop. At this time a detail of five men from Company F was sent ahead to reconnoiter and from this point I was gradually left behind in spite of all I could do to keep up with my company." ... You might also want to read where the indians with the ponies he mentioned running into came up the bluffs...it was near Reno. And some boring PT stuff via Camp... Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by fredinzona on Jul 12, 2023 13:14:21 GMT -6
Sgt Knipe I believe state the ravine walls were so steep that climbing out was impossible and he could see scrape marks where men had tried to climb out. I suspect the Sgt had a faulty memory and had an embellishment streak in him. My vote is for Cemetery Ravine.
|
|
|
Post by johnson1941 on Jul 12, 2023 13:22:20 GMT -6
Thing is fred, a lot of witnesses say the same or similiar things. Mystical place that Ravine!
Anyway here's 1 take of Kanipe via Camp:
"Knipe says when column went down in direction of Custer he went with H Co. and saw Thompson's horse standing near head of hollow down which Custer marched Comment on number of dead around Custer and between Custer and river and how Knipe counted 28 in gully." ...
"I next went along the line of dead bodies toward the river, and riding along the edge of the deep gully about 2000 feet from where the monument now stands, I counted 28 bodies in this gulch. The only one I thought I recognized at the time was Mitch Bouyer. I am not positive about this, as I did not go down in the gulch for closer inspection. I recall that, as the matter ran through my mind at the time, I was then well enough satisfied that the corpse was that of Bouyer. Having seen these bodies in the gulch I am at a loss to understand the absence of markers there."
|
|
|
Post by johnson1941 on Jul 12, 2023 13:39:25 GMT -6
here's a Benteen take...
"...[bodies were found in a ravine towards the river from Custer’s body] probably within 50 to 75 yards [from the river]. If I am not mistaken there were 22. They could not shoot out of the ravine and they certainly did not go into it to shoot out of it. Those men were killed, as I believe, by the Indians with stones and clubs in that ravine, they were unarmed, I think they were wounded men . . . I did not examine them at all. I rode along the ravine and looked down. The bodies had been counted by others. I made no personal examination of them."
Harper, Gordon. The Fights on the Little Horn: 50 Years of Research into Custer's Last Stand (p. 405). Casemate Publishers (Ignition). Kindle Edition.
and a McDougall
"On returning {Reno} ordered me to bury Company E, the one I had formerly commanded for 5 years, and to identify the men as far as possible. I found most of them in a ravine. That [ravine marked “H” on the map] is where most of Company E were found to the best of my recollection, about half were in the ravine and the other half on a line outside . . . all the men were lying on their faces and appeared to have been shot mostly in the sides. I thought they fought the best they could and probably were attacked from both sides. [The skirmish line I spoke of was] about a hundred yards from the ford where I crossed. I think that is the place marked “B” . . . I did not see any bodies but of the one company in the ravine. I did not go over the field at all"
Harper, Gordon. The Fights on the Little Horn: 50 Years of Research into Custer's Last Stand (p. 422). Casemate Publishers (Ignition). Kindle Edition.
|
|
|
Post by johnson1941 on Jul 12, 2023 13:42:04 GMT -6
Moylan...
"After leaving this place, I rode up to this point I think in company with Major Reno. In the ravine marked “H” on the map, we found twenty-odd bodies of E Company. They were undoubtedly fighting and retreating. I could see where they had passed down the edge and attempted to scramble up on the other side, which was almost perpendicular. The marks were plain where they had used their hands to get up but the marks only extended halfway up the bank."
And Sgt Ryan..
"I also saw where 20 or 28 men belonging to Company “E” . . . had gotten into a ravine . . . got so steep they could not get out, and we saw the marks where they tried to get out of there, and where afterwards they were shot by the Indians and fell back into the ravine"
Harper, Gordon. The Fights on the Little Horn: 50 Years of Research into Custer's Last Stand (p. 428). Casemate Publishers (Ignition). Kindle Edition.
etc. etc.
May be important to note how many of the witnesses mention a 'skirmish line' leading to the ravine, from LSH.
|
|
|
Post by johnson1941 on Jul 12, 2023 15:19:50 GMT -6
Eye-witness to Custer's route Company C observer of the advance disappearing from view, whilst able to view events in the valley. Clear the Court!
Yep - just like Custer & Martin & Benteen & just about everyone else did from Weir Hill. Sucks being wrong, but you can admit it now - we all know. I'll add Thompson to the list - I think that makes 10!! "We soon gained the top of the bluffs where a view of the surrounding country was obtained. ... About a half mile further on we came in sight of the Indian village... When the companies came in sight of the village they gave the regular charging yell...and from this point I was gradually left behind ...By this time the last of the companies had disappeared over the crest of the hill*..." He was STILL trying to get up the hill - 'had almost gained it - when he saw 5 Sioux'. So, let's summarize... Where did they gain the bluffs? 300'-500' from Reno Hill. (Curley, Martin, Kanipe ) How far till they saw the village? About 1/2 mile (Thompson, Martin, kanipe, Scouts) How far is Weir Hill from Reno Hill? About 1/2 mile. (Herendeen, Camp, Martin, any map) When did they cheer? When they saw the village (Martin, DeRudio, Kanipe, Thompson) Where did they see the village? Weir Hill AKA about 1/2mile from Reno Hill (Curley, Martin, Kanipe, Benteen, Hare, Newell, see above) Where did Thompson and the scouts get left behind? Weir Hill / SSR, when the troops WENT OVER THE HILL* and made the right into south coulee (Martin, HM/Curley/GA/WMRH, Thompson) Get it now? Is it FINALLY sinking in? Verified and corroborated and confirmed by numerous other witnesses, numerous times, including a witness who actually made the trip, Custer's messenger Sgt Martin... "Custer first halted on *Weir's hill and took a look at village...Here he turned column to the right and went down coulee to Dry Creek and turned to left and followed Dry Creek straight for village...." "...I started back with {message} on the trail...I did not follow Dry Creek all way back to coulee running north and south but cut across the high ground. I kept on up the north and south coulee and soon met a mounted man whom I recognized as one of "C" troop, but whose name I did not know." Sgt John Martin Attachments:
|
|