Yup, I just found similar. Hollow Horn Bear. That was 1909 with Camp passing away in Summer 1925. Godfrey's trail data from Gall was 1886 with no indication Godfrey investigated the terrain during tenth anniversary. Godfrey's opus (first edition) dated to 1892 and a couple of years after Charles King's article t'd Mrs. C off, and from 1909 good old Walt Camp was depriving pecker's of the wood they needed. From the beginning of his study (1909) and 1910 in Bismarck, he was aware of the eastern route over the approaches to Calhoun Hill, and from 1917 (I believe) and a trip with Anson Mills to hunt the specific site of the Slim Buttes battle; Camp knew to look for relics. Thus he had at least seven into eight years and maybe more, to hunt for the evidence on the ground during his visits. I don't believe he was there frequently but you would think that rather than the obviously frustrating postal exercises with such as Weston and Neihardt that he would just sniff around Luce ridge as he did SSR. As I said, we don't know he didn't and most people didn't know or realise the importance of relics on the ground. Still, I wonder if he had a collection? If he did then I wonder what happened to it? Did Ellison have a clue about relics when the notes and research were being monetized?
What a darned pity that Camp never interviewed Freeman. Now that would have been worthwhile.
ps, Godfrey didn't put the companies in Cedar Coulee. His was a different route.
Post by johnson1941 on Jul 11, 2023 12:21:25 GMT -6
ps, Godfrey didn't put the companies in Cedar Coulee. His was a different route
Thanks - as I stated numerous and every time above, I know that. (i.e we know he agreed with Gall in 1886, after seeing a trail with his orderly over there in 1876).
Are you reading these posts? I tend to rush through at first, then have to come back and refresh/catch up/fill in. (always with life in the background!)
There are a few Camp notes re: Godfrey's route vs the actual one - kanipe for example, his own ramblings...
"29. a point opposite from the Indian camp. Knipe is very positive and emphatic in expressing his recollection that Custer and all his men proceeded north along the bluffs so far west that they had full view of Reno's men and the Indian village all the time instead of some distance back and out of sight as stated and mapped by Godfrey."
"33. By this time also Custer probably had full understanding (try to verify this by observation on the ground) of the extent of the Indian village, and his route, as mapped by Godfrey. Would indicate that he was making for some point from which he could charge the north end of of the village. His course in turning down on the ridge ending in Custer hill would bear out this idea of his plan."
"35. If Godfrey's account obtained from Gall is correct concerning the dismounting of Calhoun's and Keogh's companies back by the spring, and that the led horses remained there until stampeded by the Indians, how does it come that no dead soldiers were found back there or between there and Custer hill?"
Post by johnson1941 on Jul 11, 2023 12:57:25 GMT -6
Ah interesting - Godrey had Custer's TROOPS a mile to the right, but he had Custer waving his hat (like Martin, Knipe, DeRudio et. al. say - on the bluffs; (although Martin & Knipe had him waving/cheering to his troops +/-on the hill)
Custer's Last Battle
It has been previously noted that General Custer separated from Reno before the latter crossed the Little Big Horn under orders to charge the village. Custer's column bore to the right of the river ( a sudden change of plan, probably); a ridge of high bluffs and the river separated the two commands and they could not see each other. On this ridge, however, Custer and staff were seen to wave their hats, and heard to cheer as Reno was beginning the attack; but Custer's troops were at that time a mile or more to his right. It was about this time that the trumpeter was sent back with Custer's last order to Benteen. From this place Custer could survey the valley for several miles above and for a short distance below Reno; yet he could only see a part of the village; he must, then, have felt confident that all the Indians were below him, hence, I presume, his message to Benteen. The view of the main body of the village was cut off by the highest points of the ridge, a short distance from him. Had he gone to this high point he would have understood the mag nitude of his undertaking, and it is probable that his plan of battle would have been changed. We have no evidence that he did not go there. He could see, however, that the village was not breaking away toward the Big Horn Mountains. He must, then, have expected to find the squaws and children flee ing to the bluffs on the north, for in no other way do I account for his wide detour to the right. He must have counted upon Reno's success, and fully expected the " scat terations of the non - combatants with the pony herds. The probable attack upon the families and the capture of the herds were in that event counted upon to strike consternation into the hearts of the warriors, and were elements for upon which Custer counted in the event of a daylight attack.
Not sure how Custer back got to his troops after waving...hmmm...
For me, there are several observations to make, and principally to do with W.M. Camp. The idea that Custer routed through Battle Ridge to reach the valley/village was an early spurt and the idea quickly discarded because............. it didn't happen. At opposite end and ends of the tactical fight, things began in MTC as Martin was despatched. It actually doesn't matter significantly which of the approaches over or through the ridge below Reno Hill, which the command rode. It is relevant to understanding the dog's dinner of research and motives gone on since it was declated that Custer's remains were not mutilated. We do know from Godfrey (of all woodpeckers) that an arrow was shoved up the Lt. Col's Johnson, his thighs were slashed and he had very likely been dumped on.
There is some later day oral trad. that a party ofreturning BH ran into the companies. MTC was a thoroughfare route leading to Busby along what is now the 212. That trail ran to the ford B area and it is reasonable, and more, to assume the BH were on that trail headed to 'Lo Hunter's camp and contacted the rearmost or right flank company of the column in MTC. My feeling is that took place at the time Martin was being prepped and dispatched. Trumpeter.... to me! We have Martin's testimont at Chicago and his later comments that he didn't tell all he knew, besides the buffalo skin waves and shooting reported as he next saw the command skedaddling north. Does any of this pedantry really matter? Well, it does when you are trying to work out, inch by inch on the ground, why people think what happened, happened.
Why were there soldiers on Luce Hill? Why were ther soldiers on the NC ridges? Why did soldiers move from there to Greasy Grass Hill? Why did soldiers advance on Calhound Hill?
Because there were BH there.
In terms of Walt Camp and the Cheyennes, he knew at least what G.B. Grinnell knew. Whether he purchased Grinnell's books is moot but irrelevant.
Grinnell described the location of the ford referred to by White Shield. Camp experienced quite some difficulties sorting out his fords and his discovery of Thompson's ford is illustrative. Although Camp knew of Thompson's accounts of things and discussed them with with veterans he interviewed, including Godfrey, I doubt entirely that Camp ever read Thompsons manuscript or the published book article or Belle Fourche Bee articles. He did correspond with PT and meet him at the battleground when a moment of 'Holy Hades' arrived with him realising Thompson went nowhere near Ford B and not even Maguire's B. There were an awful lot of B's and they have proliferated.
In the linked image, the rightmost picture of four men and a lady - I suspect that the gent with back to camera is Brininstool but unproven. I have seen the lady in other images of the battlefield but that's another story. I doubt that she is Kanipe's wife. That would mean Kanipe was there in the image. How weird..... hmmm... Camp and Kanipe, 1916? 40th anniversary......
we do know who Kanipe married, right?
It seems to me that Camp initially went with McLoughlin's take on the battle and then discarded as his (Camp's) knowledge, grew.
Last Edit: Jul 12, 2023 4:44:16 GMT -6 by herosrest
It was McLoughlin's son who interpretted the 7th Cavalry interview of Sitting Bull and others by Edgerley, when the bands of Sioux returned from Canada. How are you guys getting on with their modern forest fire dust and smoke?
Those interviews sit in some entirely obscure early 20th Century book which eludes me at the moment - maybe because it was an 19th Century one. The accounts and analyses run all the way back to 1876/77 with Whittaker and the second half of Frances Fuller Victor's 11 years in the Rocky's. Then there was Doc. Allen's book about the visit by a wagontrain of settlers in August 1877 who visited the field, studied the ground and came away with a ton of relics. Allen then drove the stagecoach which ran along the valley and halted every trip so passengers could do what everyone out there wanted to, visit Custer's grave. George Buell's wife visited the field every weekend from Ft. Custer, and tidied graves. Georgr P. Buell, 11th Infantry, came in on the steamers in May 1877, with two companies and made camp on the mouth of the Little Horn where construction of a fort was begun. Sherman, Sheridan,Sheridan, Terry and pretty much every general in the west routed through Post No.2 that summer as the Nez Perce ran up to the Yellowtone and on into the rimrock geyser valleys and passes headed for...... Canada. Maj. V.K. Hart 5th Cav. ex commander company C 7th Cavalry, was patrolling the Cheyenne and camped on its forks. 5th Cavalry visited the battleground. Battalions of 5th Cavalry visited and patrolled the Bighorn. Good luck with the relic hunting.
Last Edit: Jul 12, 2023 5:14:48 GMT -6 by herosrest
Post by johnson1941 on Jul 12, 2023 5:00:26 GMT -6
1) What is/are "BH"? B... Hostiles??
"and principally to do with W.M. Camp. The idea that Custer routed through Battle Ridge to reach the valley/village was an early spurt and the idea quickly discarded"
2) Are you saying Camp said Custer advanced across battle ridge and not down MTC? Can you point to that notion? Thanks!
"Grinnell described the location of the ford referred to by White Shield."
3) Where is it? Is there a map of Grinnell's ford B, or can you post the description?
"Camp initially went with McLoughlin's take on the battle"
4) What is that "take"?
On edit: I see the added link for the McLoughlin book - describes LBH around 149 - lot of relying on Gall, so I assume that is the "take" you refer to? "...Custer was on the 2nd ridge from the river, another ridge, some what lower...was interfering with a full view."
Ah - are you saying initially Camp agreed with Gall & Godfrey & McLoughlin (Custer on 2nd ridge over), then evolved to agreeing with Martin, the Scouts, etc.?
There is a limited amount of 'I really was there' data available. It is broadly available to those interested in what happened and also those who design what happened. Because we cannot talk to people such as Martin, Kanipe and good old Fred, then we are left to interpret and verify by corroborations.
From Kanipe to Walter Camp in 1908:
Goldin makes a mistake when he says that the command was not on top of the hill so they could see Major Reno's command plainly, because Custer rode exactly in the center of the head of the companies of the five companies, not over fifteen yards from where I rode; and my company was on the left of the five companies, and I could certainly see Major Reno where I was plainly.
Note - According to Martin's recollections, E Co was in the center of the 5 companies as they moved abreast.
From Kanipe to Camp, dated 10/17/08:
In regard to the distance where Reno crossed the Little Big Horn [Ford A] the day of the 25th of June, from where Custer turned to the right, must be the place about where you and Curly and I turned to the right the day we were there. . . . As you know, I always told you that Godfrey was wrong about the line of march of the 5 companies on the bluff. Also Goldin's theory was not right. I never did believe that he was an orderly for Custer.
From Kanipe in the Helena Independent:
After a consultation with his officers, he divided the regiment into four companies. General Custer with the 5 troops C, E, F, I & L followed the main Indian trail. Major Reno with the 3 troops A, G and M marched to the left and abreast. Captain Benteen with 3 troops D, H and K marched to the left of Reno and abreast. Captain McDougall with B Troop was to march in the rear of the pack train and follow the main Indian trail.
It is because of stufflike this, that authors who invest their pedigree in their pets theory come to dismiss Kanipe as a shirking absconder and Martin as a Pizza short of crust - I do not.
Over to you.
Last Edit: Jul 12, 2023 7:45:41 GMT -6 by herosrest
Post by johnson1941 on Jul 12, 2023 8:04:40 GMT -6
Not sure why you posted what you did...what do a couple of those comments have to do with what we've been talking about?!?
Kanipe vs Godfrey I get, and confirms what Camp believed.
Camp also clearly supported the Ford theory - still don't know where (if?) you get the notion he was w/later Godfrey/Gall. (if that is what you actually meant - not sure sometimes what you're trying to say). Maybe early on? ??
"Custers Route so far as evidence of battle is concerned there is none whatever to support Godfrey's theory, whereas as evidence that Custer's command was at Ford B orin that vicinity there was Sgt. Bustard and horse, the wounded horse just below ford."
Oh, and you might REALLY need to re-think your theory and opinions based on your trust in Curtis, especially re: the timing of the scouts getting back close to ford A where they met Benteen. Camp emphatically confirmed this - with people who were there (of course w/comments by the scouts themselves corroborating). Such as...
"Hairy Moccasin pointed out the vicinity of Ford A as the place where they met Benteen. Fenton Campbell was the interpreter. He could not interpret all of the questions I wished to ask, but the foregoing statements of Hairy Moccasin were unmistakable as he told them to me in English. He understood enough English to communicate that much"
Gibson, 1910 "Gibson met the 3 Crows before he got to Reno on hill. They pointed out the direction where Reno's men were. Says Benteen got to point where Reno retreated up before Reno got up out of bottom."
Anyway - when you can post something more ...more specific and more relevant to the discussion we've been actually having- please do! Thanks!