|
Post by johnson1941 on Jul 11, 2023 3:59:32 GMT -6
You forgot 'from Weir “HILL”' and ‘over “Sharp Shooters” ridge and down the west side of it’ - you almost got it now! You should add a quote or 2. Thanks! Here - like this: Curley “When we got to the ridge the soldiers kept marching on the east side of Reno Hill and going down on the west side of the ridge -- down a ravine, running northward” When Curley was on site with Camp - that’s exactly what they did to go down Cedar/South Coulee. Read about 'the valley of the tributary of Reno Creek' behind the bluffs/ridge running south of Reno peaks that Custer went down, and how Curley went with Bouyer along the bluffs parallel with Custer, right here... Nice right? Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by johnson1941 on Jul 11, 2023 4:48:00 GMT -6
And if for some reason, some one throws in with Gall & Godfrey - we do have Kanipe...
Kanipe (w/Camp)
"Yes come along with us. " I fell in behind and went along with him. We went down to Dry Creek, on about the same route which I now believe Custer followed, and then down Dry Creek nearly to the ford of the river."
"What trail followed on June 27 with Benteen? Struck straight across from ravine Custer followed to Dry Creek."
"Knipe is very positive and emphatic in expressing his recollection that Custer and all his men proceeded north along the bluffs so far west that they had full view of Reno's men and the Indian village all the time instead of some distance back and out of sight as stated and mapped by Godfrey"
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 11, 2023 4:54:20 GMT -6
If Godfrey followed a trail which was nowhere near the bluffs and Weir followed another one which was along the bluffs, could we be looking at two battalions? Not saying Godfrey was wrong but Troopers with Reno did saw at least one company on the riverside bluffs (E Company).
Cedar looks the obvious choice to get to MTC, but from what I have read, it was a rugged route for five companies to travel. Where they still travelling in column or sets of twos, they had been in column which brought about the rumour that the last set of four in C Company all dropped out (Fitzgerald, Brennan, Watson & Thompson?) or is this untrue.
Middle coulee and Cedar coulee may have both been used.
Ian
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jul 11, 2023 5:04:43 GMT -6
I'll come back on the Camp interpretations since i'm tapping from phone. However, you obviously dismiss Curtis's investigation and such as Gibbon from days afterwards. Maguire was not over the route but Benteen was and mapped it at the time. I believe that Patterson Hughes was over the route and mapped it at the time within days of the battle. Varnum came off the route and went to the right to investigate Sitting Bull's offerings to Wakan Tanka.
One of the things which snafu all this is the command in MTC. So some BH parties show up on the trail to the east and the rearguard respond and rightwheel or about face on that emerging threat. That is, they move UP MTC driving away the threat which runs north for the Hills. Que another 'Braden' detachment thrown onto Luce and the rear company returning to close up. Detachment skirmishes Luce andd the companies move north to the river and onto NC. Braden detachment - let's call it Crittenden platoon, stand Luce ridge and hold there until called north later.
It really is necessary to read Curtis's account of it bearing in mind the rapid move north by Custer was then compromised and cut off by the rapid departure of the valley battalion.
Godfrey was not there. The Crow scouts were and indicated the route to Curtis. Benteen was nit there and just swung in the wind with bigger fish to fry than actual detail. Edgerley left us his embarrassments and Martin drew stuff on the RCoI map in pencil. It's amazing that Reno did not have it rubbed out at the time or afterwards. Hare was all over place.
Regards.
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jul 11, 2023 5:09:32 GMT -6
If Godfrey followed a trail which was nowhere near the bluffs and Weir followed another one which was along the bluffs, could we be looking at two battalions? Not saying Godfrey was wrong but Troopers with Reno did saw at least one company on the riverside bluffs (E Company). Cedar looks the obvious choice to get to MTC, but from what I have read, it was a rugged route for five companies to travel. Where they still travelling in column or sets of twos, they had been in column which brought about the rumour that the last set of four in C Company all dropped out (Fitzgerald, Brennan, Watson & Thompson?) or is this untrue. Middle coulee and Cedar coulee may have both been used. Ian This theory was put over by Pennington in one of his books with it being TWC and his company C which seperated. It's an interesting permutation with permutations but went down with a led four to crash and burn. Pennington seemed to upset a lot of battle buffs. Anything within reason was possible which is why the information and detail obtained by Curtis is central to any study. Discredit him rationally and you win a squid.
|
|
|
Post by johnson1941 on Jul 11, 2023 5:10:52 GMT -6
Ian,
Yep agreed on your points.
Herendeen says it was "nice traveling" - but doesn't state for how many! Via pictures today, TO ME, it doesn't seem all that bad on either side - AZRanger has rode it, and I think says they could have used Cedar then cut over to medium like you said (more about entrance into MTC and cutting across to Nye than easy access if I recall) - but others have said otherwise (see The Myth of Cedar Coulee" video).
The thing with split battalions, with Martin & Kanipe & Thompson & scouts around - you THINK would have said something.
|
|
|
Post by johnson1941 on Jul 11, 2023 5:18:31 GMT -6
I'll come back on the Camp interpretations since i'm tapping from phone. However, you obviously dismiss Curtis's investigation Godfrey was not there. The Crow scouts were and indicated the route to Curtis. Benteen was nit there and just swung in the wind with bigger fish to fry than actual detail. Edgerley left us his embarrassments and Martin drew stuff on the RCoI map in pencil. It's amazing that Reno did not have it rubbed out at the time or afterwards. Hare was all over place. Regards. Why do you keep bringing up Godfrey? He had them over to the East, with Gall. As did later Benteen. I do not dismiss Curtis - what I see however is how all those same scouts, with others, described Custer using Cedar. AND BTW did not have Custer sitting on his horse with his officers watching Reno lose for an hour. When you quote just what they told Curtis - it will help! (Viola was 3rd (or fourth) party). Why not quote Gibbon since you refer to him - what did HE say? The thing about Camp's 'interpretations'? HE WAS OFTEN THERE ON SITE WITH HIS WITNESSES. (Like Curtis.) while he was writing them...HE INTERVIEWED EDGERLY MARTIN KANIPE CURLEY SCOUTS HE DOG ETC ETC. Love to see why all those guys when with Camp (and others) were suddenly wrong. NOT YOUR opinion - quotes are nice! Cheers!
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jul 11, 2023 5:28:58 GMT -6
I'll come back on the Camp interpretations since i'm tapping from phone. However, you obviously dismiss Curtis's investigation Godfrey was not there. The Crow scouts were and indicated the route to Curtis. Benteen was nit there and just swung in the wind with bigger fish to fry than actual detail. Edgerley left us his embarrassments and Martin drew stuff on the RCoI map in pencil. It's amazing that Reno did not have it rubbed out at the time or afterwards. Hare was all over place. Regards. Why do you keep bringing up Godfrey? He had them over to the East, with Gall. As did later Benteen. I do not dismiss Curtis - what I see however is how all those same scouts, with others, described Custer using Cedar. AND BTW did not have Custer sitting on his horse with his officers watching Reno lose for an hour. When you quote just what they told Curtis - it will help! (Viola was 3rd (or fourth) party). Why not quote Gibbon since you refer to him - what did HE say? The thing about Camp's 'interpretations'? HE WAS OFTEN THERE ON SITE WITH HIS WITNESSES. (Like Curtis.) HE INTERVIEWED EDGERLY MARTIN KANIPE CURLEY SCOUTS HE DOG ETC ETC. Love to hear why all those guys when with Camp (and others) were suddenly wrong. NOT YOUR opinion - quotes are nice! Cheers! There you go again. The Crow scouts did not 'see' the companies go down Cedar Coulee. Impossible. That simple by the baseline of sight. A favour with your Camp bearings - when are they dated? Some of the Ree scouts were following behind as the companies went over the ridge. Over the ridge and that was Weir's dumpling dip. Are you ready to chew on White Shield yet? Added - Curtis rode the route with the Crow scouts and called it an easy ride and quick. Have you read Curtis since if not, then discredit him or leave it open. Cedar Coulee was an easier route to ride to visit Reno Hill until the road was constructed. NPS have a history of moving events to suit access and their current pet theory. A class example is the Lame White Man marker stuck beside the Battle Road when his death site was completely known to the Cheyenne who marked the spot with a cairn, at the time, and hundreds of yards to the south. There are photos of Timber stood there with the cairn but he was perfectly happy for the marker be be mislocated away from where his loved one died. Here fell LWM - not!
|
|
|
Post by johnson1941 on Jul 11, 2023 5:32:39 GMT -6
There you go again. The Crow scouts did not 'see' the companies go down Cedar Coulee. Impossible. That simple by the baseline of sight. A favour with your Camp bearings - when are they dated? Some of the Ree scouts were following behind as the companies went over the ridge. Over the ridge and that was Weir's dumpling dip. Are you ready to chew on White Shield yet? What are YOU talking about?!? You mean the scouts that YOU say were with Custer when they went down the bluffs & over Weir Peaks, suddenly couldn't see him/his command go down south coulee instead??? What are you saying??! And BTW - The scouts said EXACTLY that!! Hairy Moccasin THE 1911 INTERVIEW AS INTERPRETED BY ELI BLACK HAWK "Custer’s command as well as Bouyer and the 4 Crows saw Reno’s fight in the valley. Then Custer and command turned down south coulee into Medicine Tail Coulee and went down toward river and out onto flat. Two men were killed here" ."We went back on the trail up Medicine Tail and south coulees and along bluffs past Reno hill and on up nearly to Ford A.." Goes Ahead "Close to where Reno and Benteen later in the day were attacked by the Dakotas, on the ridge of hills above the river, the three Crow scouts were left behind and Custer's command went down the draw toward the lower ford on the run"
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jul 11, 2023 5:56:27 GMT -6
1911 HM - misinterpretted. Perfectly clear from Martin at RCoI. Two men killed corroborated by Lazy White Bull. GA - Ridge of hills. Good luck with that. They were on the bluffs immediately over the river - take your pick which spot AND were looking to the.............. south at Reno deployment. Your idea is that Varnum saw the Gray horses on SSR. Good luck with that as well. There's a video of Fred looking up there from the valley trying to visualise it. The dismount was on the fringe of the Garryowen timber so where was Varnum looking - straight into the sun, maybe? Viewing the terrainVarnum was up there on the 25th, 26th and 27th June 1876 besides left flanking Reno's advance down the valley to GO. The river then looped further south beyond the road to the railway and the loop was castrated and dammed upriver side by the railway construction crews in 1894/95. This is the long running Varnum and Godfrey argument about Custer's route which has existed since Curtis got at the reality 23 years after Godfrey's pile of twaddle.
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jul 11, 2023 6:01:09 GMT -6
Your Camp attachments - all I can suggest is compare them with Curtis's map and his account of the route taken from the three Crows. In the viewing Google link - right in between the posts of the 'Museum EXIT NOW' sign, is where I think Bouyer's Bluff was. This is not set in concrete but what do you think? linkTruncated loop - look north of the dismount - slightly east of north at the the road route 'S' bend.
|
|
|
Post by johnson1941 on Jul 11, 2023 6:24:45 GMT -6
1911 HM - misinterpretted. Perfectly clear from Martin at RCoI. GA - Ridge of hills. Good luck with that. Lol! Yep - it was THEIR interpretations that were wrong- not YOURS!! Too funny. (although they were corroborated - yours not so much) There ya go again - posting opinions with out back-up... Just what did Martin say? LOL! Guess they couldn't, oh I dont know, turn around?!? Too funny! Psst - Custer was up there too - until they went down South Coulee and the scouts were "left behind". Just ask Curley kanipe and martin and De Rudio and Varnum, and WMRH and GA and HM and... Nope. Varnum saw them between "7" and "2" 'back from the bluffs' - guess he was mis-interpreted too! here I'll QUOTE HIM... Varnum "It was back from the actual edge of the bluffs . The head and the rear of the column were both behind the edge of the bluffs in a sort of hollow" "think they were a little farther down than when we struck the bluffs when we up on them, and not quite so far down as the figure "2" in pencil on the map" See how that works? And of course when these numerous witnesses are corroborating each other, in person and with maps and descriptions - makes it all so easy to see what's what! Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jul 11, 2023 7:01:52 GMT -6
You haven't seen the map published by Graham showing where Varnum indicated he saw the Custer battalion.
Camp had some deep problems in progressing his research. Godfrey was the God of the battle's history and noted for his delight in exposing the myriad survivors and liars about the battle and being there. There don't seem to be so many these these days but I still hope to bump into one sooner or later.
Camp excluded interviews which he thought played him or were unreal. Both Godfrey and Camp had problsms with Thompson and completely misunderstood him. Camp still got it wrong with Thompson together at the battlefield. That is because bias influenced him. A Ree scout carried a message to Custer at the end of the bluffs and returned to join the pony stealers. This is in one of the Camp interviews ( if I remember correctly) and it flew right over Camp. What a message from Benteen to Custer?
|
|
|
Post by johnson1941 on Jul 11, 2023 7:08:07 GMT -6
Maybe not re: graham - can you post it? It'd be cool! Anything backing up your opinions on Camp? He was after all the source of a lot of this - of course often corroborated & with multiple actual witnesses. Actual Godfrey opinions (i.e his - not yours) would be nice! Everyone has issues with Thompson - go figure! Anything specfic he had to say you want to add? A message by a Ree would be great - anything more specific? On edit: This map? Has to be... You mean where Col Varnum marked it in the valley of Cedar Coulee? Thanks! Varnum "It was back from the actual edge of the bluffs . The head and the rear of the column were both behind the edge of the bluffs in a sort of hollow" "think they were a little farther down than when we struck the bluffs when we up on them, and not quite so far down as the figure "2" in pencil on the map" Fairly close, seems a bit too north from his RCOI, but it works. Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jul 11, 2023 7:40:33 GMT -6
I have a copy somewhere and will hunt it up but this mod gives it link. I discussed this Curtis - Godfrey thing here and there, with fred and others way, way back when he was sounding out his work on strategy. He was a Cedar Coulee guy and nothing was gonna sway that, which is the way it was and is. We had a falling out when I told him Custer was killed on Calhoun Hill. He just couldn't get his head around that and went a bit silly. I'm still trying for the Camp map which indicated he was aware of NC ridge before his death. I did post link to the Curtis/Godfrey/Varnum map published by Graham many years back but a ton of my stuff was hosted by Opera and they pulled the plug whilst many resource sites have been upgraded and re-indexed with my links extinct unless I spend a decade hunting them up. Such is life's fill in your own blank. Well, it's good to see you again, General! Likewise, Walter. Now General, tell me all about the Ree scout who carried Benteen's message to Custer in MTC. Aaah..... speak up Walt! I'm deaf as a post! Penwell, bring my horse - pronto. point marked by Col. Varnum where he saw gray horse troop - AZRanger can help with it. He was guided up there on horseback and particularly interested in that terrain feature. link
|
|