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Post by lakotadan on Jul 3, 2024 5:30:18 GMT -6
Wow my friend! Great job on your posts! I bet that took a lot of hard work. Much appreciated! However, I would just like to keep things simple! I have included several pictures (the 1932 aerial photograph and others) below that have appeared many times on my posts on this forum. It is a “now you see it, now you don’t” comparison, or a “presto-chango” type thing! Do you think the Forgotten Gulch geologic feature suddenly appeared on the battlefield between 1926 (your pictures) and 1932? I don't think so! What happened to the Forgotten Gulch that was obviously there on the battlefield? Onward!
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 3, 2024 5:59:41 GMT -6
Thanks - they did take some effort! Figuring clear and correct would be better, but takes some to get there! No. I think there is no gulch, and there never was one. "the only picture"... I think what you see as a "gulch" in only 1 version of only 1 aerial picture, is in fact a long/wide slope along the ridge, some high points, and a lot of a DR Branch. {Other version - ie. 3 - would be the lower southern edge of said ridge and cemetery ravine}. Nothing. It was never there. I think THAT is what by now would be obvious. I know I know…”core samples”. Maybe expect to find some horse dookie - as THEY WERE there, at least. Cheers! And once again, like in the horse pics, the 1897 Cross shot above, and every other picture and map we have, many which clearly show that area, exactly as shown in this attached aerial…there is NO gulch ANYHERE between cemetery ravine and DR/DR branch...
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Post by lakotadan on Jul 6, 2024 10:47:13 GMT -6
So, I found this interesting. Below is listed a website where an infographic done of the battlefield in 1888 can be seen. www.alamy.com/relief-map-of-the-battle-of-the-little-bighorn-june-25th-1876-custers-last-stand-vintage-infographic-print-by-walter-d-russell-1888-image386061218.htmlIt is an interesting “infographic” done in 1888 by Walter D. Russell. He numbers a few interesting things. He also numbers 3 ravines (number 2, 3, and 4). You really must zoom in close on the pictures to see the numbers of the ravines (can’t post it on the thread because I belive the infographic is copyrighted?) which are more towards the middle and lower end of the infographic. Notice that ravine #3 (that number is shown placed in that ravine in about the middle of the infographic) runs across the battlefield below LSH (just as the Forgotten Gulch would do). So, who was Walter D. Russell? Was he actually there on the battlefield in 1888 to draw his infographic? The infographic looks to have been drawn from the South side (on the NA village side) of the Little Bighorn River looking across it to LSH. Or is this infographic just his imagination? I checked out his drawing of the grave of Lt. Crittendon (that is how it is spelled on the infographic – although I think the correct spelling is Crittenden) shown on the left side of his infographic. That drawing is correct. Lt. Crittenden was buried on the battlefield (with a headstone and a footstone as shown in the infographic) and his body was moved in 1931 to the Custer National Cemetery (because of road construction being done on the battlefield). That information can be found here- www.findagrave.com/memorial/143814177/jonathan-jordan-crittendenA picture of Lt. Crittenden’s headstone and footstone on the battlefield can be found here- digitalhorizonsonline.org/digital/collection/uw-ndshs/id/650/Just some more interesting stuff! Onward! (Addendum- So, road construction going on in 1931. Lt. Crittenden’s remains were moved to Custer National Cemetery in that year. Now I know it probably took a couple of years to build the road at the LBH. Why, because road construction can only be done in the spring and summer months (I know that because I am currently living in Wyoming where road construction is done primarily in the summer months!). The Forgotten Gulch was shown in the aerial photograph of 1932. In the aerial photograph of 1935 (both photographs shown somewhere previously on this thread!) the Forgotten Gulch has been filled in with dirt. Aha! Now we know what happened to the dirt removed for the road construction in 1931 (probably ongoing till about 1933 or 1934!). They dumped the dirt (evidently starting somewhere in 1932) into what I term as the Forgotten Gulch! Problem solved! Onward!)
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Post by herosrest on Jul 7, 2024 3:10:30 GMT -6
I'm sure, as in certain, that both have read Greene but for those following this prescient topics pinpointedly imprecise locations, I tender (not for profit) the following historical information about the post battle battlefield and its attendances Stricken Field and pages 68 -69 is (are) usefully informed and informing. It was interesting to learn that terrain south of the cemetery was utilized for dumping human waste. Core that, chaps... (sorry ) I did have a photo of a model T whizzing..... along the Battle Ridge section of track, and will try to hunt itup. I have enjoyed analysis of the 1926 excursion onto the battlegroung from the southwest (Greene messed up his compass with this seminal ride) and the gradual pinning down of the gulch which was lost, filled in or, remains entirely misunderstood. If you feel that my jovial approach is mocking this discussion, or derogatory - it ain't, but I am enjoying the new perspective and follow it, and and a little here and there. I'm going back to M cLoghlin's chapters on the battle, in his book about..... Friends and will update if I detect, surmise, or glean a smidgeon of worthwhileness relevant to the fighting of the battle, or hunting up terrain features. He understood a little Cheyenne you know. His wife and son spoke the native tongue. His wife was an entirely remarkable lady as all ladies are. You can see in this image, a ravine - gully - runoff - coulee - which was graded and cut in half for the route doglegging from the national cemetery to circuit north of the monument elevation. There is an image somewhere of the actual earthworks underway...... hmmmm.... Ah... It's on Friends. 1950's grading images. Anysways chaps, Let's think about MT for a minute. Image view looking across the ford area into the valley. This is roughly where (I believe) the first blacktop surface was laid on the ground, stretching back towards Reno Hill. What the image shows well, all things being equal - is that you can see diddly squat nothing of the valley from pretty mush anywhere in MTC. It really only is in visiting and doing it in June, that that is as obvious as in the image. The view from the ridges a mile further back (NC and Luce) is even worse for observing the valley. What does that suggest about how to observe into the valley and where todo it from?
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Post by herosrest on Jul 7, 2024 3:40:06 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Jul 7, 2024 3:48:33 GMT -6
We know from the Buell map teva.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p15138coll23 2877-1879, that both sides of the river were timbered in 1876, since timber takes more than 3 years to grow such that it would be presented on a military map.
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Post by lakotadan on Jul 7, 2024 6:42:10 GMT -6
My good friend herosrest-
You stated in one of your previous posts-
“……...Stricken Field and pages 68 -69 is (are) usefully informed and informing. It was interesting to learn that terrain south of the cemetery was utilized for dumping human waste. Core that, chaps... (sorry)”
Well, I figure depending on your orientation of the battlefield, the Forgotten Gulch could be considered south (and east) of the cemetery.
No wonder the NPS does not want to take core samples! I am still chuckling about your comment! Well done!
Thanks!
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Post by lakotadan on Jul 8, 2024 13:18:48 GMT -6
Well, my friends,
I have (quite literally) written the book on the Forgotten Gulch! It will be available for purchase on an internet site on July 10th (unless something goes wrong!).
As I stated before in a previous post to this thread. I am not looking to make money, just want the information out there!
Now, for those that read my book they have a choice (of course the members and guests of this forum can just read this thread and no need to purchase my book which is a compilation of many of only my posts on this thread!).
They can simply do nothing (and either agree or disagree with what I stated in my book) or they can write a book of their own that contradicts my book’s research, statements, and evidence presented.
The National Park Service has the final say if they wish to take any sort of action. I have no say or control in their decision. It should be (at the minimum) core samples and or ground penetrating radar over the Forgotten Gulch!
But since it has been about 3 weeks since I sent the Superintendent of the Little Bighorn National Park a draft copy of my book (and I have had no reply from them) I am certain nothing will ever be done or happen!
And since I don’t want to appear as a crackpot (Diane’s term-not mine!) to the NPS, that was my last correspondence to the NPS.
I do have one more avenue of approach that is left open to me. However, time will tell if I am willing to take it.
We will see what happens.
I have stated everything I could possibly say about the Forgotten Gulch in this thread. I am not going to repeat myself or keep on discussing the subject. I am done talking about it.
Onward my friends (maybe, or maybe not)!
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 10, 2024 5:54:08 GMT -6
HR, This 'view from MTC' seems it would be an interesting topic. Shame it will get buried in a totally unrelated thread - this missing gulch stuff seems to have run its course.
Might want to start a new thread?
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Post by herosrest on Jul 10, 2024 6:37:40 GMT -6
There is some video and resources on this battle and topic HERE and HERE. There possibly were two ravines which Maguire was aware of, and noted in his early sketch which was discovered by a researcher recently. The following post comes courtesy of the research of Jeff Wahl:The following hand drawn map was included with Lt. Maguire's Annual Report for the Fiscal Year Ending June 30, 1876, to Brig. Gen. A. A. Humphreys, July 10, 1876 from camp on the Yellowstone River. Lt. Maguire mentions the sketch/map in his report... "When the village was sighted he ordered Reno to charge with his three companies, telling him that he would be supported. Reno crossed the river at point A (See sketch herewith) and moved down the woods at C without encountering much opposition...". It is an informative sketch.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 10, 2024 7:07:10 GMT -6
Just file closing the ranks. Seeing the village from MTC. WMC was for a long time, and possibly life long, of opinion the village stretched downriver to opposite Deep Ravine and of course it did not when Custer was drawing breath. The camp ceased at the Cheyenne lodges across the water opposite the divide into Nth MTC. The camp was not viewed from MTC. A map in G.P. Buell's collection in Tennesee shows the river timbered both sides of MTC and the B fords and thus..... I am taking up whistling and will figure out how too, on line.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 10, 2024 10:14:45 GMT -6
Makes sense - WMC didn't seem to update his survey map re: the village/camp details. Actually think his notions would make it harder for him to "sight the lower part of village" though? But what was Martin's excuse? "Here he turned column to the right and went down coulee to Dry Creek and turned to left and followed Dry Creek straight for village.
About half way down to Little Bighorn we came into full view of the village (The first time he had seen south end of it - W. M. C.) and here he halted the command and Cooke wrote out the message to Benteen and I started back with it on the trail."Ha - well - at least PART of the time!! "When started back with message had not seen village from this coulee."See? A new thread would be great!
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Post by montrose on Jul 14, 2024 12:04:34 GMT -6
The Ford D excursion is an example of a decision death spiral. LTC Custer assembled 5 companies on the south end of Battle Ridge. His scout towards Ford B convinced him he lacked the forces and means to cross there. He was now waiting for the trailing Benteen and McDougal battalions to find him, though he bever told them where, just follow my trail.
Impatient, he then took 2 companies on a new scout to Ford D. In his eyes, this took good use of available time. It also completely ignored any response from the enemy. METT-T means Mission, Enemy, Terrain, Troops available, and Time (and weather is implied). But by ignoring enemy, the rough terrain, the heat and the great fatigue of men and animals he created a foolish risk, He took his element out of contact with his command, lost his ability to command and control and exhausted his elements. He forgot the so what test. What was he going to achieve after this recon, and what was he going to do after the linkup? By exhausting both his forward and trail elements he put himself in a situation where no follow on actions could occur.
As far as the location of E Company bodies, I do not see it relevant to anything. They are dead, and we already know that as fact.
A reminder that agriculture has changed the terrain of LBH. A vast quantity of water that flowed though the region's rivers is now absorbed by crops and animals. Lower water volumes changed the river beds, force of water on adjacent terrain, and drainage. There are differences from 1876 to 2024.
William
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 28, 2024 4:35:06 GMT -6
From a WM Camp letter / list of questions to Woodruff: 1--Benteen and Moylan have described quite explicitly 28 dead men found in one place, and almost in a heap, in the deep gullyabout half way [---] where Custer lay and the river. The spot is not far from where the marker for Dr. Lord now stands. I have talked with other eye witnesseswho corroborate it , and ,in his magazine article, 16 years ago, Godfrey referred to the same group of dead men.
I am told that a squad of men from the 7th Inf. under Sergeant David Heaton carried these dead men up out of the gully and buried them on the bank somewhere.
[---] tell me whether there was a sergeant of that name in any of the six companies of infantry present, to what company he belonged,and whether he performed the duty just described? If such was the [---] how do you account for the fact that there are no markers in the gully or anywhere near it on the bank? Or were the markers distributed over the ground between the point in ques- tion and where Custer lay, in order to give the appearance of a line of battle?
ON EDIT: This report re: Heaton was incorrect...see later post.
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Post by lakotadan on Jul 28, 2024 5:52:58 GMT -6
Wow! Great research johnson1941! I thought I was done with this thread. But your research is just too good to not comment on! I qoute part of your research below- "From a WM Camp letter / list of questions to Woodruff: 1--Benteen and Moylan have described quite explicitly 28 dead men found in one place, and almost in a heap, in the deep gullyabout half way [---] where Custer lay and the river." Isn't that interesting! So, "half way where Custer lay and the river". Let's see, what gully could they be talking about? I know, the Forgotten gulch (or gully)! See below attachments of Maguire's maps. The Forgotten gulch circled in blue and Last Stand Hill circled in red. I always believed Maguire's map was always correct on the Forgotten gulch (gully) because that location was important for him to show and include ('H" Many bodies found here). Just my opinion! Attachments:
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