G'day from Oz

[ray]

Just checking in. Vietnam Vet (1st Cav (briefly) and 173rd Airborne) now living in Australia. Twice an Infantry Company Commander in Nam (Armor Branch loaned me out to lend a bit of class and dash). :-)

Originally from the Navajo Rez in Arizona. For my sins, I teach Military History and I've recently been doing a five parter on the 1876 Centennial Campaign (plus Washita thrown in to help explain Custer's decisions). In three days (Thursday) I'm up to the Last Stand, although since Reno, Benteen, McDougall, etc. just barely made it to Reno Hill last week (and DeRudio hasn't checked in yet), it's possible that I won't get to the TLS until next week and my 5-parter becomes a 6-parter (75 minute sessions). I animate 1:24,000 (or 1:25,000) battle maps using PowerPoint as part of the presentations, and found that the degree of precision sometimes (usually) makes this approach unnecessarily difficult.  Still, my military course is subtitled "A Battlefield Perspective" so a feel for terrain (and weather and the rest of METT) is essential.

I found the animation done by the filmmaker interesting, but there seem to be obvious inconsistencies in the terrain covered, etc., that make me suspect that it's just a (wonderful) first draft and not something I can rely on. Alas, most of the plethora of stuff on the web is GIGO, so I'm excited about your website, which I first spotted when the 1876 series was just a gleam in my eye.

One archaeology report had a sketch map showing all current grave markers which has driven me crazy, as it is difficult to correlate it with most routes shown in various sources.  I'm looking for a good location for the officers' markers to help make up my mind for my PowerPoint anyway.  Can anyone help?

Blessings,

Ray

[tubman13]

Welcome Ray and blessings to you. A member here Arizona Ranger is a neighbor to your old home digs(knowledgeable). I don't know how long you have prep wise, but you may wish to hit Fred up via message here. Also Richard Fox book "Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle", reasonable via Kindle. Again welcome.

Regards,
Tom

[AZ Ranger]

Welcome Ray. I live in Flagstaff. I have many friends that are Navajo officers with various agencies. I also have Hopi friends but don't hold that against me. My good friend and last one to work with just retired from Navajo Fish and Wildlife. I retired from the pay job in 2014 but have remained on as a Captain in the reserves. So I am still an Arizona Peace Officer.

I became interested in this Battle in earnest when we had training (2005) and the instructor told us that we needed to have something besides the job. My grandfather showed me cases he found on the Custer Battlefield. That would be before 1957 since that is the year he died. So he planted the seed. My parents visited the battlefield a few times. In 1978 I took a job in Nebraska and visited the battlefield. In 2004 I took a long trip across the northern US and visited the battlefield. In 2009 after the class my son gave us a trip to battlefield. By that time I was on the boards and he was also for a short while.

In 2008 I was in contact with Gordon Harper mostly regarding horses but also GPS. I had recorded thousands of miles on GPS horseback on patrols and checking water catchments. We also used the GPS for vehicle patrols and aerial surveys. Gordie was in the final stages of his book and wanted exact GPS locations. He formed a group called the Independent Company of Explorers (ICE). We were to meet and stay at the 7th Ranch in 2010. Gordie passed away in 2009 but two of the ICEers showed up. Gordie's daughter showed up in his place and I have been going there every June for about 2 weeks ever since June 2010. I will be there in June of 2019.

If I can be of assistance please feel free to contact me on the board or by PM.

Regards

AZ Ranger

Steve Andrews

[ray]

Hi Steve,
Nice to meet you. I visited the battlefield many moons ago, and the terrain is implanted in my brain (not that anything else is). When I review the various theories, I try to imagine if the experienced men like Keogh or Ryan would respond to the terrain that way. Reno actually did a very good job choosing defensive terrain. Unfortunately, as you'd be well aware from all your hours on horseback, all too many people see a map as a flat 2D representation. As a former combat Infantry officer (and a former Ranger of a different kind) terrain is a life or death matter. It's been interesting to contrast the cartridge case findings and headstone locations with the terrain and presumed flows of the battle. I just wish I could visit again and walk out my observations, but not to be.

Of course, when we think of the terrain, it's blindingly obvious that the Indians (especially Gall but also many others) read ground well.

When I was in university, I spent three summers with the USFS surveying the Coconino National Forest when not fighting fires. What a great job! Don't tell anyone, but our "real mission" was turning the National Forest into a giant parking lot... at least sometimes it seemed like that. Alas, we failed. One time my crew surveyed the impoundment area for a dam being constructed so that the government could offset the construction cost by the value of timber logged by the contractor (typically, they had forgotten about this until the 11th hour and rushed us in by chopper just ahead of the water); I noticed my instrument man, an ASU law student, making two entries for every sighting and asked what he was doing. It seems that this guy, an entrepreneur (don't ask about rattlesnake gravy), was recording the data to make the world's greatest fishing map. I think we were staying at Timber, AZ at the time.

Anyway, I just finished animation up to reassembly of Custer's five companies on Calhoun Hill (1646 hours by some reckoning). So far, so good. If I have to I can now put in a black bordered slide with the monument and the words, "Nobody really knows!" :-) Naturally, I won't do that. After all I have nearly 36 hours left to work out the final 24 minutes if I need to. :-) Sigh.

Anyway, Steve, from a (fake?) AZ Ranger to a real one, thanks for your reply.

Blessings,

Ray

[fred]

Nov 12, 2018 5:38:50 GMT -5 ray said:

One archaeology report had a sketch map showing all current grave markers which has driven me crazy, as it is difficult to correlate it with most routes shown in various sources.  I'm looking for a good location for the officers' markers to help make up my mind for my PowerPoint anyway.  Can anyone help?

If you can be a little more succinct, i.e., precise, in what you are looking for, I can give you all the help you need... or should be able to.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[ray]

Hi Fred,

Thank you for your kind offer. I appreciate that as an acknowledged expert and author on the battle you are probably bombarded by time-wasting, thoughtless, uneducated, lazy, trivial and even venal posts at times, so your offer is even more appreciated. I hope that my request won't fall into one of those categories.

1. Can you point me to a map or grid coordinates where each body of an officer in Custer's battalion (Companies C, E, F, I, L) was found?
2. It is recorded (source at this stage omitted) that three heads wired together were found in the deserted Indian village in the aftermath of the battle. Do you have any more information on this matter (for example, were they in the Cheyenne village or anywhere near Ford D)?
3. I appreciate that nothing is known for certain about the sequencing of events after the two wings regathered on Calhoun Hill until the final shots were heard some 24 minutes later, except from the bodies of fallen troopers or artefacts like shell casings and Indian accounts which may conflict due to the fog of war, etc. However, can you point me to a proposed (hypothetical) sequence of events that YOU find credible?  If you want to just say, "Read my book," fine, I'm buying "Strategies" via Kindle but "Participants" is a whopping $46.98 on Kindle and on my meagre (Australian) Veteran's pension I fear that's beyond my means.

My reason for trying to be specific is to enable me to confirm the detailed hypothetical animated timeline that I have now tentatively compiled on the USGS Crow Agency Quadrangle 1:24,000 topographic map from a number of books (including "Archaeology, History and Custer's Last Battle"), official reports and records, NPS information, online articles, accounts by Curley and survivors from Reno Hill, Indian accounts (Gall, etc.), and so on - including a number of threads on this message board. For example, Fred, I have gotten a lot from reading your 2012 conversations on the Company E SSL, i.e., the desperation breakout attempt through Deep Ravine.  The problem is, as you would be aware, that there is such an overload of data and information (as well as of "theories") that for a newbie like me to find what I'm looking for may well require hours and hours of sorting through all of the thousands of posts despite the excellent organization of posts into threads (thanks for that, by the way).  Maybe that's the price that veterans want newbies to pay.  :-0

No, I'm not so naïve or egotistical to believe that I can do better than anyone else in finding the "true story", merely trying to piece together a coherent minute-by-minute hypothesis that addresses known knowns to the best of my limited ability. While the battle is important, it isn't even the central part of my research interest, which covers the whole 1876 Centennial Campaign and history of the northern Plains Indians from the Santee uprising in Minnesota (which direct relatives were affected by and participated in) through to the end of the military campaigns against the Lakota after the battle, as well as the Battle of the Washita for its relevance to General Custer's experience, thoughts and tactics.

As an aside, Fred, I noticed the Vietnam-era change of command photo that you show (presumably Big Red 1). Thank you for your service. (I would say "welcome home", but I'm not certain that "home" exists anymore, at least not for me).

Blessings,

Ray, Nam Class of 69-70, I don't have a change of command photo going in - both events were in the heat of battle in the field after predecessors were WIA.  That was a long time ago now.  Sigh.  I do have one change of command photo "coming out" and, man, do I look haggard.

[fred]

Nov 15, 2018 16:31:34 GMT -5 ray said:

I appreciate that as an acknowledged expert and author on the battle...

Ray,

First off, I do not consider myself an "expert" on this thing, so let's put that aside. Your requests and interests should never be considered trivial and when we are too busy to respond to people interested in this event, then we become lost within ourselves. I pray that never happens to me.

1. Can you point me to a map or grid coordinates where each body of an officer in Custer's battalion (Companies C, E, F, I, L) was found?

I know of no map with those coordinates. The best I can do is point you to three maps, one contained in a book by Douglas Scott and Richard Fox on their co-findings during the archaeological digs. The other two would be helpful, but are virtually impossible to find. Both are fold-outs, and one contains overlays on an aerial: it is called the Bonafide map, though titled, Little Bighorn Battlefield Map. It used to sell at the site's book store for $7.99 (U.S.), but is out of print and seemingly nowhere to be found. The other is a vague-contour map-- also once sold at the bookstore for something like 50 cents-- but also out of print and I have heard available someplace for as much as $100.

Having depressed your desires, I can provide descriptives of precisely where each officer fell... at least those with Custer. I have not delved into the valley deaths with that sort of certainty. I have, however, taken all 253 markers, examined their location, eliminated the pairs, and placed names with each remaining, numbered marker. After enough work, my findings are considerably more accurate than even what the battlefield provides. In fact, I can account for between 29% and 32.9% of the names with reasonable certainty. As far as I know no one has ever done that type of study before. The remainder are arbitrary placements, but arbitrary only in their specificity, not in their general location.

If you wish to discuss the descriptives, we can do so privately... or even here as long as my methodology is not publicly revealed.

2. It is recorded (source at this stage omitted) that three heads wired together were found in the deserted Indian village in the aftermath of the battle. Do you have any more information on this matter (for example, were they in the Cheyenne village or anywhere near Ford D)?

I have never heard of heads "wired together," nor of a precise location, Cheyenne versus Sioux circles. I have, however, compiled all the data I have come across and there seem to be four to five we can place some accuracy on. Here they are:

PVT Armstrong, John E. (A Company)—Killed in the valley, his headless body found near Dorman’s. Author Bruce Liddic claims he was one of those who wound up staying in the timber and then refusing to leave when everyone else left. His scorched head was purportedly found in the lower part of the Indian village and identified by Myles Moylan. Headless remains were found on May 25, 1926 in the valley and were thought to be his. They were buried at Garryowen, MT, as an unknown soldier.

PVT McGinniss, John J. (G Company)—In the valley fight. His horse bolted and McGinniss’ head was later found on the top of a pole in the village.

PVT Smith, George E. (M Company)—Killed in the flats. Evan Connell claimed his horse bolted and he was carried or dragged into the Indian village where he was butchered, his head put on a stake. Kenneth Hammer backed this up with quotes. James Willert agreed. His body was never found. Archaeologist Doug Scott says his horse bolted near the timber, so this may all be correct. Also noted found on skirmish line and at edge of timber (this is obviously doubtful).

CPL Martin, James (G Company)—Killed near Reno’s retreat crossing. The head of a corporal from G Company was found in the Indian village, under a kettle. In all likelihood, it was Martin’s. PVT Foley (K) claimed he found a head and it belonged to a CPL from G, but he said it had red hair, so this one may be doubtful.

1LT James Ezekiel Porter—There is probably no sufficient support for this, but while his body was never identified, his head was purportedly found in the village. Since none of the officers verified this, it is highly doubtful.

3. I appreciate that nothing is known for certain about the sequencing of events after the two wings regathered on Calhoun Hill until the final shots were heard some 24 minutes later, except from the bodies of fallen troopers or artefacts like shell casings and Indian accounts which may conflict due to the fog of war, etc. However, can you point me to a proposed (hypothetical) sequence of events that YOU find credible?  If you want to just say, "Read my book," fine, I'm buying "Strategies" via Kindle but "Participants" is a whopping $46.98 on Kindle and on my meagre (Australian) Veteran's pension I fear that's beyond my means.

I do not understand why Participants should be so expensive on Kindle in Australia. It is $9.99 here. Can't you go on Amazon-U.S. and order it from there?

I think you will find the proper sequencing of events in The Strategy of Defeat. I use several different methods to determine such and I think the timeline-- which is the heart and soul of the book-- verifies that sequencing. The timeline consists of some 800 entries (some duplicated out of necessity to show concurrent events in other areas of the battlefield), but if memory serves me correctly, I believe there may be somewhat over 600 individual entries. The actual pages in the book total slightly more than 60 just for that study and consist of 25 events or situations. In my opinion it is reasonably complete.

My reason for trying to be specific is to enable me to confirm the detailed hypothetical animated timeline that I have now tentatively compiled on the USGS Crow Agency Quadrangle 1:24,000 topographic map from a number of books (including "Archaeology, History and Custer's Last Battle"), official reports and records, NPS information, online articles, accounts by Curley and survivors from Reno Hill, Indian accounts (Gall, etc.), and so on - including a number of threads on this message board. For example, Fred, I have gotten a lot from reading your 2012 conversations on the Company E SSL, i.e., the desperation breakout attempt through Deep Ravine.  The problem is, as you would be aware, that there is such an overload of data and information (as well as of "theories") that for a newbie like me to find what I'm looking for may well require hours and hours of sorting through all of the thousands of posts despite the excellent organization of posts into threads (thanks for that, by the way).  Maybe that's the price that veterans want newbies to pay.

Be careful about old threads and what I had to say prior to the 2014 publication of Strategy. I have changed my opinions on a lot of issues, all because of the timing study in that book. Since its publication, the only thing I have altered in my own mind may be the precise route the Custer column took once in Cedar Coulee to their arrival in Medicine Tail Coulee. Keen minds like Steve Andrews' have convinced me my original idea needed to be reconsidered.

No, I'm not so naïve or egotistical to believe that I can do better than anyone else in finding the "true story", merely trying to piece together a coherent minute-by-minute hypothesis that addresses known knowns to the best of my limited ability. While the battle is important, it isn't even the central part of my research interest, which covers the whole 1876 Centennial Campaign and history of the northern Plains Indians from the Santee uprising in Minnesota (which direct relatives were affected by and participated in) through to the end of the military campaigns against the Lakota after the battle, as well as the Battle of the Washita for its relevance to General Custer's experience, thoughts and tactics.

I am working on a book that outlines the entire campaign. It is written in what I call a "bullet-narrative," a newly invented phrase of mine... at least I think it is mine... and it affords not only a glance at every column, separately, but "asides" associated with each, and quite frankly, a hell of a lot more. Pre-LBH as well as post-LBH are not of such interest to me and at my age I find I have less time for other things. The LBH, "Barbarossa," and Vietnam consume virtually every available hour I have.

As an aside, Fred, I noticed the Vietnam-era change of command photo that you show (presumably Big Red 1). Thank you for your service. (I would say "welcome home", but I'm not certain that "home" exists anymore, at least not for me).

I spent ten years in the U. S. military, most in the Regular Army, but some in the New York Army National Guard... simply because I realized leaving the service was a huge mistake and I missed it terribly, but events, family, etc., all seem to get in the way and sidetrack my desires. I left the Army as a captain, and, yes, I was in the 1st Infantry Division in Vietnam, a company commander, running all the division's convoys in 1966-1967. I was originally an infantry officer, but with bad eyes, the Army, in all its wisdom, felt it was better served with me in the Transportation Corps. Fortunately, I had a mentor of sorts with Major General William E. DePuy, the CG of the 1st, and when I arrived he saw to it my talents were placed in the appropriate area, so I took over the TC company in the 1st Supply and Transport Battalion.

I do have one change of command photo "coming out" and, man, do I look haggard.

Believe me, Ray, I can exchange haggard photos with you.

I hope all this helps. Based on what you say here, I really think the Strategy book will be an asset for you. And believe me, I am not pushing the sale of the damn thing, not for $3 a copy. For me, it was a labor of complete love and I think it has helped a few people better understand this whole event.


Very best wishes,
Fred.

[ray]

Nov 12, 2018 7:04:17 GMT -5 tubman13 said:

Welcome Ray and blessings to you. A member here Arizona Ranger is a neighbor to your old home digs(knowledgeable). I don't know how long you have prep wise, but you may wish to hit Fred up via message here. Also Richard Fox book "Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle", reasonable via Kindle. Again welcome.

Regards,
Tom

Thanks, Tom. On your advice I bought Fox and appreciate your advice now even more.

It helped me complete my presentation on time.  Thanks.

As an aside, I found that I had already downloaded parts of it from various websites already that didn't quote the source. Is nothing sacred? :-)

Blessings,

Ray

[ray]

Nov 15, 2018 21:58:19 GMT -5 fred said:

Ray,

First off, I do not consider myself an "expert" on this thing, so let's put that aside. Your requests and interests should never be considered trivial and when we are too busy to respond to people interested in this event, then we become lost within ourselves. I pray that never happens to me.

Nobody should label themselves an expert - unless they really are. But the rest of us should look for you anyway.

If you wish to discuss the descriptives, we can do so privately... or even here as long as my methodology is not publicly revealed.

 My email is [e-mail].  I will respect your information and your privacy absolutely

have never heard of heads "wired together," nor of a precise location

I apologize for the unsourced tidbit.  I have been absorbing such a mass of information over the past two months of directed research that some things just stick in the head (provided it's still attached) without knowing how it got there.  Mea culpa.  I should be more careful, but my interest is more informative than academic.  Still, there should be standards.

Amazon pricing, etc.

Amazon ensures that my purchases go through Amazon Australia.  That's a huge win for them: not only do they build their market but get a bit extra on exchange rates and gain some dictatorial control over what is sold in this country.  The latter never hits until one notices a reference document searched for isn't available on Amazon or is priced out of reach.  One book I was desperate for was going to cost $275; I had a hardcopy sent from Italy.

Old threads, new book.

Understood.  If you want a critical read of your book on the 1876 Centennial Campaign, please consider me.  You may not like what I say, but (1) it will be honest and (2) it will be written to help you check and validate your book.  No ulterior motives here - at least not yet. :-)

Bad eyes.

I had bad eyes, too.  They kept me out of West Point (my Congressional appointment fizzled at the final physical); probably the best thing that ever happened to me.  I completed ROTC twice, once through New Mexico Military Institute and once in university (omitting the freshman year) and duplicating the rest.  As a DMS, I wanted Armor/Armor.  The branch came back Ordnance/Ordnance because I was a engineer.  The Sergeant Major called a friend in DC and told me they'd made a mistake, it was Armor/Armor.  I learned right away who really ran the military.  In our day, the NCOs just tolerated the officers, subtly rewarding good ones and stonewalling others. I know that I was respected, because the NCO Clubs in Graf and Hohenfels had a bounty on my Ranger tab during field exercises.  :-)  I can't begin to imagine the social dynamic in Custer's days with postings that lasted eons.

Fred, thanks for your reply.

Blessings,

Ray

[tubman13]

Ray, chances are you are a drive-by poster, I hope you have garnered some of what you were looking for. I am sure there a number of us who would enjoy seeing your presentation. I know it will be a fair, balanced, and insightful offering.

Regards,
Tom

[AZ Ranger]

Nov 13, 2018 1:14:40 GMT -5 ray said:

Hi Steve,
Nice to meet you. I visited the battlefield many moons ago, and the terrain is implanted in my brain (not that anything else is). When I review the various theories, I try to imagine if the experienced men like Keogh or Ryan would respond to the terrain that way. Reno actually did a very good job choosing defensive terrain. Unfortunately, as you'd be well aware from all your hours on horseback, all too many people see a map as a flat 2D representation. As a former combat Infantry officer (and a former Ranger of a different kind) terrain is a life or death matter. It's been interesting to contrast the cartridge case findings and headstone locations with the terrain and presumed flows of the battle. I just wish I could visit again and walk out my observations, but not to be.

Of course, when we think of the terrain, it's blindingly obvious that the Indians (especially Gall but also many others) read ground well.

When I was in university, I spent three summers with the USFS surveying the Coconino National Forest when not fighting fires. What a great job! Don't tell anyone, but our "real mission" was turning the National Forest into a giant parking lot... at least sometimes it seemed like that. Alas, we failed. One time my crew surveyed the impoundment area for a dam being constructed so that the government could offset the construction cost by the value of timber logged by the contractor (typically, they had forgotten about this until the 11th hour and rushed us in by chopper just ahead of the water); I noticed my instrument man, an ASU law student, making two entries for every sighting and asked what he was doing. It seems that this guy, an entrepreneur (don't ask about rattlesnake gravy), was recording the data to make the world's greatest fishing map. I think we were staying at Timber, AZ at the time.

Anyway, I just finished animation up to reassembly of Custer's five companies on Calhoun Hill (1646 hours by some reckoning). So far, so good. If I have to I can now put in a black bordered slide with the monument and the words, "Nobody really knows!" :-) Naturally, I won't do that. After all I have nearly 36 hours left to work out the final 24 minutes if I need to. :-) Sigh.

Anyway, Steve, from a (fake?) AZ Ranger to a real one, thanks for your reply.

Blessings,

Ray

Hi Ray

I live in Timberline which is just north of Flagstaff Arizona. I think there are all kinds of rangers. I teach firearms for the NAU Park Ranger Training Program. I have lots of ranger friends that work for various agencies some commissioned officers and some civilian rangers. I was here when the Forest Service was involved in lots of timber sales and certainly some were close to clear cuts. Our habitat people were involved with reaching a good result for forest health and wildlife populations. Do nothing and you get the fires like we are seeing in California. So a balance must be struck. Chaparral has no commercial value so it goes untouched.

Regards

Steve Andrews

[ray]

Nov 17, 2018 10:01:59 GMT -5 tubman13 said:

Ray, chances are you are a drive-by poster, I hope you have garnered some of what you were looking for.

Hi Tom,

I probably AM a drive-by poster, but if so, in the immortal words of the Terminator, "I'll be bek!"

I am sure there a number of us who would enjoy seeing your presentation. I know it will be a fair, balanced, and insightful offering.

Thanks for your encouraging comments.  I've actually put together a series of five 75 minute PowerPoint-aided presentations on the 1876 Centennial Campaign and relevant background.  I presented them over the past six weeks (we had a break presenting the Battle of Chickamauga) to my "Military History - A Battlefield Perspective" class in Brisbane, Queensland, Australia.

I started animating battles using primarily military symbols on tactical maps [1:24,000 (USGS) or 1:25,000 (military)] maps and, believe me, the 25th June 1876 was the biggest challenge yet  (and maybe for all time).  Just coming up with an order of battle for the Indians was a challenge in itself.  But it was fun and personally rewarding.  I'll post a few samples of several hundred slides as attachments. BTW, (1) I recognize that the named picture probably isn't Crazy Horse, I explain that in the class; (2) one of my changes will be the number of bodies noted on the slide, and (3) I exclude Heredon (or Heredeen) from the organization slide because the source I used didn't have him assigned to Custer's 7th Cav, although I do show his part in the valley battle.

It was especially instructive to see the amination of the overall campaign where the three prongs maneuver while the Indian camp moves around between them.  My takeaway from that was that the overall search strategy actually worked; in fact, it worked three times, with each prong finding the Indian village once.

Anyway, one might consider all of this stuff as "DRAFT".

Animation moves units around the map per a timeline largely based upon the online US Command & General Staff College Atlas of the Sioux War.  Naturally, there weren't Indian units as such (except outliers like Lame White Man's Suicide Boys, etc.) so I colored terrain controlled by them pink and occasionally used red arrows to show specific thrusts.  I'm almost afraid of posting what I have (although it actually presents a coherent theory based on that timeline) because I haven't yet read "Strategies" and I know that I'll be making changes (but not as many, based on what I've read here, as one may think).  When Fred posted his immortal "you'd be wrong if" post, I didn't actually think much of what he was warning against. :-)

Anyway, twist my arm... or not.  My general feeling right now is to file all my work away as an interesting and fun exercise that had its day.

Blessings,

Ray

Attachments:

[ray]

Nov 17, 2018 12:53:55 GMT -5 AZ Ranger said:

Hi Ray

I live in Timberline which is just north of Flagstaff Arizona. I think there are all kinds of rangers. I teach firearms for the NAU Park Ranger Training Program. I have lots of ranger friends that work for various agencies some commissioned officers and some civilian rangers. I was here when the Forest Service was involved in lots of timber sales and certainly some were close to clear cuts. Our habitat people were involved with reaching a good result for forest health and wildlife populations. Do nothing and you get the fires like we are seeing in California. So a balance must be struck. Chaparral has no commercial value so it goes untouched.

Regards

Steve Andrews

Hi Steve,

I not surprised that you didn't recognize Timber, AZ. It was a USFS camp (with permanent-style wooden houses) somewhere between two other places I worked out of at times Happy Jack and Long Valley (thus above the Rim), although we did get down to Camp Verde, etc., and occasionally fought lightning strike fires ("that's money talking") along the rim proper. There was one family that was permanently stationed in Timber, a government trapper and his family. We would have venison whenever a deer accidently stumbled across one of his predator traps because it was the environmentally sound thing to do. I always thought that if I wanted to drop out of society, I knew where to find paradise.

BTW, the dam impoundment area that my USFS survey crew mensurated in the summer of 1965 was the Blue Ridge, now called the C.C. Cragin reservoir, near Pine which was built and operated by Phelps Dodge back then.  Damn, this trip down memory lane is something else.  So if you can find a decent fishing map of C.C. Cragin reservoir, it may trace back to my crew.

Blessings,

Ray

[tubman13]

Ray, on a side note, regarding your time in Vietnam, do you know what type of tanks Company D 16th Armor had over there. I think a buddy of mine supported or was supported, his name was Fred Horsley, his brother John was over there as well, a tunnel rat(another story). You being Armor, I thought you might know. I'm pretty sure Fred said The Armor folks were actually attached to an Airborne group, pardon my terminology as I'm USAF.

Regards,
Tom

[fred]

Tom,

In all likelihood, M-48s. They were lighter than the MBT M-60s.

Best wishes,
Fred.