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Post by tubman13 on Nov 18, 2018 8:21:40 GMT -6
Thanks Fred, it sounded that Ray may have been among the same group that Horsley mentioned years ago.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Colt45 on Nov 18, 2018 8:58:00 GMT -6
The "tanks" might also have been M551 Sheridans. The M551 was air transportable as it weighed 1/3 the weight of the M60. I put tanks in quotes as those not familiar with the differences tend to describe all armored vehicles that have a main gun as tanks.
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Post by tubman13 on Nov 18, 2018 9:37:28 GMT -6
Thank you as well Colt, I hope to run into Fred and John one of these days.
Regards, Tom
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ray
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Post by ray on Nov 18, 2018 13:14:26 GMT -6
Ray, on a side note, regarding your time in Vietnam, do you know what type of tanks Company D 16th Armor had over there. I think a buddy of mine supported or was supported, his name was Fred Horsley, his brother John was over there as well, a tunnel rat(another story). You being Armor, I thought you might know. I'm pretty sure Fred said The Armor folks were actually attached to an Airborne group, pardon my terminology as I'm USAF. Regards, Tom Hi Tom,
Actually, Company D, 16th Armor used M113 ACAVs, they didn't receive the Sheridan (M551) to replace the M56 Scorpions that they deployed to Nam with. I've never even seen a Scorpion so far as I know.
I had commanded HHC and Company C of the 4/64 Armor in Germany (M60A1's) before arriving in Nam, but when I put in for Nam my CO in Germany assigned me to command the Reconnaissance (Scout) Platoon (2x M113A1s, 3x M114A1s, a M132A1 and, usually, operational control of the Battalion HQ's three M60A1s) just off the top of my head) to prep for the move; the cool thing about the Scout Platoon was that it was the Army's smallest combined arms unit (infantry, armor and arty (well, mortars))… and it WAS great training for Vietnam.
As I mentioned, I went over to the dark side (infantry) in Vietnam because I was too impatient to stay in line for D/16. What an idiot!
And, Tom, D/16 wasn't attached, but a part of the 173d Airborne's TO&E along with Troop E, 17th Cav. An M48 tank battalion WAS attached, 1/69th Armor, and also the 1st Battalion (Mechanized), 50th Infantry. The 1st Royal Australian (Infantry) Regiment was also attached (before my time there).
The thing that made D/16 a plum was that it was the ONLY armor unit in Vietnam that drew jump pay (then $110/month for officers and half that for EM); that doesn't seem like much but the bragging rights were enormous.
Sorry for the reminiscences.
Blessings,
Ray
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ray
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Post by ray on Nov 18, 2018 13:24:12 GMT -6
The "tanks" might also have been M551 Sheridans. The M551 was air transportable as it weighed 1/3 the weight of the M60. I put tanks in quotes as those not familiar with the differences tend to describe all armored vehicles that have a main gun as tanks.
Hi Colt,
You may recall the (in)famous film of the experimental airdrop of the experimentally airdroppable (as opposed to air transportable) M551 Armored Reconnaissance/Airborne Assault Vehicle. The 15 ton tank had about a zillion parachutes artfully attached to enable it to waft gently to the ground and looked a dream during descent until upon impact what was evident was a huge dust cloud which spewed road wheels and other pieces of M551. "Air droppable" quickly was rewritten as "air deployable". After improvements, two of the ten M551s airdropped during Just Cause (Panama 1989) were destroyed on impact.
One might say that, taking the above and its well-known electrical turret and deflagrating cartridge and other issues, the Army's Sheridan tank (the M551) worked about as well as its namesake Phil Sheridan's Centennial Campaign up to and including June 1876. In both cases, corrections were to come after contact with the enemy. That would suggest that the M551 was aptly named.
Somehow, I don't seem to recall an armor vehicle nicknamed the "Custer".
Blessings,
Ray
P.S. The Sheridan is still in use today as a museum piece, a firing range target, and various artificial reefs.
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ray
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Post by ray on Nov 18, 2018 14:02:29 GMT -6
Tom, In all likelihood, M-48s. They were lighter than the MBT M-60s. Best wishes, Fred. Hi Fred,
You are correct in that the M48A3 with 90mm gun was deployed to Vietnam vice the heavier M60A1s with 105mm.
IMHO, that strategic decision was probably meant to limit cost rather than improve battlefield capability or mission suitability, as the M48A3 was being phased out (except in the USMC) and there had been tens of thousands made. Interestingly, there are still thousands of M48s of various mods in use around the world (like a thousand in Turkey).
Tanks for the memories.
Blessings,
Ray
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Post by Yan Taylor on Nov 18, 2018 14:06:53 GMT -6
Wasn’t it the British army who started the trend of naming tanks after US generals? The US army just gave them a model number starting with the letter M of course [M4]. We Brits always gave our tanks a name Valentine, Matilda, Churchill and host of others usually starting with C. When we started buying American tanks via lend lease, we started to give them our own names like Stuart [M3 light] Grant [M3 medium] and Sherman [M4 medium]. So I guess that the US Army picked up and that and took it further with Pershing, Patton, Chaffee and Jackson.
Ian.
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ray
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Post by ray on Nov 18, 2018 14:29:16 GMT -6
Thanks Fred, it sounded that Ray may have been among the same group that Horsley mentioned years ago. Regards, Tom Hi Tom,
Units could be airborne (i.e., parachute) or airmobile (transportable, deployable). The airborne units were Special Forces and the 173rd Airborne Brigade. Other famous airborne divisions the 82nd and 101st were actually deployed (to their disgust) as airmobile, which status the 1st Cavalry also had, but the 82nd and 101st got to keep the wording "airborne" on the tabs above their unit patches and in their unit names because they remained on "airborne" status other than when in Vietnam. I seem to recall that they tried to maintain at least one brigade on jump status in Nam (and may have somewhat succeeded) because it was a huge individual or unit prestige issue to some.
The long and the short of it was intense jealousy of the 173rd AIRBORNE Brigade (Separate) for its jump status and the added jump pay, but the boots on ground reality was pretty much the same for all and all (save SF) would have had tanks assigned/attached in various ways. Even SF would have sometimes worked with US or RVN armor.
So the unit your mate referred to may have come from a fairly broad group.
Blessings,
Ray
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ray
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Post by ray on Nov 18, 2018 14:41:27 GMT -6
Wasn’t it the British army who started the trend of naming tanks after US generals? The US army just gave them a model number starting with the letter M of course [M4]. We Brits always gave our tanks a name Valentine, Matilda, Churchill and host of others usually starting with C. When we started buying American tanks via lend lease, we started to give them our own names like Stuart [M3 light] Grant [M3 medium] and Sherman [M4 medium]. So I guess that the US Army picked up and that and took it further with Pershing, Patton, Chaffee and Jackson. Ian.
Hi Ian,
Yes, naming military systems is one more thing that we can hold against you POMs. Now the US Army (at least) names armored vehicles after military personnel (mostly famous generals), choppers after Native American tribes, self-propelled artillery after medieval warriors, missile systems after pointy objects, and munitions systems after arachnids... once again proving that we Yanks can do anything to excess (I'm actually an Aussie now, so I see these things more clearly).
BTW, I'm still waiting for a helicopter to be named the Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse or, simply, Gall.
Blessings,
Ray
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Post by Colt45 on Nov 18, 2018 15:04:11 GMT -6
Ray, I spent time on the M60A2 mostly, but the time I had on the M551 convinced me it was a giant POS. When you fired the main gun, it rose up to about the 3rd road wheel and rotated the crew (a joke). By that I mean the TC was ejected from the vehicle, the gunner was thrown into the TC's spot, the driver was thrown to the gunner's spot, and the loader was just plain SOL. And every nut and bolt on the vehicle had to be reinstalled and/or tightened back up. IMHO it was a useless vehicle.
Firing that vehicle was like handing a 44 magnum to a five year old kid and expecting him to be able to handle it. The 152mm gun/launcher was a much better weapon on the M60A2, even though the A2 was not a successful experiment. My unit, 1Bn67th Armor, was equipped with the A2s.
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Post by tubman13 on Nov 18, 2018 15:23:09 GMT -6
Guy's thanks for that, you make a USAF services type proud just to be in the same military as you. I would love to cook you all a leg of lamb over the coals! By the way the guy I mentioned, Fred Horsley was a Greenie Beanie, that competed with me for a fine filly, which he finally broke(the horse talk is for Steve). Thank you again.
Regards, Tom
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ray
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Post by ray on Nov 18, 2018 16:28:25 GMT -6
Ray, … the time I had on the M551 convinced me it was a giant POS. When you fired the main gun, it rose up to about the 3rd road wheel and rotated the crew (a joke) That is actually the funniest thing I have heard in a long time! Seriously! Thanks. Colt, I never returned to tanks after Vietnam, despite being Armor. First, it was Infantry Officer Advanced Course at the Benning College of Knowledge as an exchange student from Armor Branch to lend a bit of class, and then a series of higher staff positions at 4-star headquarters interspersed with USCGSC and extra war service, and then ...
[coredump]when my marriage broke up just as I was being transferred back to command a tank battalion at Fort Hood, I stupidly thought that (1) a divorce was a career killer (instead of enhancer) and (2) single parenthood was incompatible with my career choice and therefore resigned my RA commission and left active duty. Being from the Navajo Rez I was (and am) really stupid about social thingys. My time in the California National Guard was an eye opener (like 140% political and -150% military), so I tried the Reserves, which were only marginal better. So I left the USA for good and resigned my commission altogether because of my stupid sense of ethics and right & wrong (just ahead of a letter assigning me as an Instructor at USCGSC summer school in Europe, duh). But I had a great life (read as "professional career")! Now, of course, things are crap being retired on a modest Australian veteran's pension, but that's just the way it goes. [Points finger upwards] and I still have Him (or, rather He has me) so life has meaning and it ain't about me. And my class participants loved learning real history about Custer and LBH (thanks, guys) - they especially loved seeing Kanipe and Martini gallop across Montana on PowerPoint maps (using the meme I added as an icon, which somehow looks better the smaller it is). [/coredump]
Things could be a whole lot worse. Look at what the 7th Cav faced back on 25 June 1876.
Thanks again for your insight on the wonderful Sheridan/Shillelagh! [chuckle]
Blessings,
Ray
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Post by Yan Taylor on Nov 19, 2018 7:43:53 GMT -6
Yes, naming military systems is one more thing that we can hold against you POMs.
Well Ray we can always guarantee that an Aussie will lower the tone
C'mon man we sent you plenty of Matilda's during WW2, as we had to give you something to 'Waltz with'
Ian.
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ray
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Post by ray on Nov 19, 2018 14:44:02 GMT -6
Hi Ian,
IMHO, Britain's greatest and most useful military gift to Australia (besides Gallipoli, your generals/field marshals, all those wars and stuff) were the WWI-era J-class submarines. Not that I'm ungrateful, because they made exciting scuba dives in my younger days. But who's to say that Custer's 7th wouldn't have fared better had the British vehicle naming convention been in vogue with mounts named for immortal commanders like Braddock, Raglan, Abercrombie, McCarthy, Pakenham, Cochrane, Clive or my personal favorite Elphinstone. At least individual horses, other than Vic, Dandy and Comanche of course, might still be remembered today.
Swag or not, Matilda II's have a blinding rep (except with ingrate Soviets who didn't find them suitably winterised) because their heavy armour made them formidable against the Eye-ties and in the Pacific and North Africa before Jerry used 88s. [NOTE: "British English" used to communicate with Ian, I don't want to "lower the tone", y'know.]
Blessings,
Ray
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Post by Yan Taylor on Nov 19, 2018 14:54:28 GMT -6
Well Cobber, I have been on these American boards for eight years now and have never been called a Limey, so being called a POM just seemed strange, but never mind Ray are you watching the Rugby Union match on the weekend [England v Australia]? Our rugby league season has ended for now, so I only have the Union game to watch.
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