logan
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Post by logan on Mar 24, 2021 8:56:58 GMT -6
The fact it was Custer himself, they wouldn’t have wanted his body to be left to the Indians, it wouldn’t be the first time the body of a commander was fought over, one side trying to prevent it being taken or indeed scalped and mutilated when his men were able to move him away, the other side wanting to claim it as a victorious ‘trophy’ that golden hair had been slain, he wasn’t the demigod some imagined him to be, unable to be killed.
What would be said of any officers or troopers if they had survived, or even after the complete defeat, if it was discovered they left Custer’s body to the Indians, while they themselves fled ?
Custer being killed early on and the shock effect it had on men and officers alike, can not be underestimated. It only takes a few minutes for events to turn against you on a battlefield, when closely engaged with the enemy.
Wasn’t it King Leonidas, whose body was carried away and defended by the Spartans at Thermopylae, before they too fell in their last stand ?
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Post by custermania on Mar 25, 2021 10:17:13 GMT -6
Maybe Custer was shot but could still function. Maybe Custer knew the only way to win was still cross. Maybe 20 minute pause was for doctor to look at him. Maybe he told Tom you have to try to cross at D or we will be whipped out. Maybe D was the last Hail Mary. Many said Custer went back to front of his command. He led the entire way with Mitch. I think Mitch got shot helping GAC on saddle. Custer making more Than one attempt to cross says he knew where he had to get to win. Even if he could of grabbed 20 woman and put them in front.
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Post by custermania on Mar 25, 2021 10:19:53 GMT -6
Logan I’m Right with you. No one wanted to be there but GAC. When he got shot rather at Ford B or D. Soldiers no way especially family would leave Custer there.
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kenny
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Post by kenny on Mar 25, 2021 11:44:11 GMT -6
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Post by noggy on Mar 25, 2021 12:43:17 GMT -6
Maybe Custer was shot but could still function. He was shot in the chest and the temple. I doubt any of those wounds would leave him in a state where he would lead 5 companies further North and then take a break on LSH in order to let George Lord check if he was allright. Noggy
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Post by noggy on Mar 25, 2021 12:49:05 GMT -6
Michno analyzes what WCB said (60 years post battle) and I for one have a hard time trusting much of what he said at all. He`s shooting soldiers left to right, you'd think he was a Sioux Rambo. Yet nobody, including the other who were a what most assume was Ford B, ever seems to mention him if my memory serves me right. They remembered just about everyone else, for some reason. I really recommend Lakota Noon in general, and even if one doesn't have to agree with all of Michno's assumptions (he falls into a too classic LBH "trap; he's right, everyone else is wrong, there are no alternatives. Fini.) the things he writes concerning WCB are analytic and good. Noggy
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logan
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Post by logan on Mar 26, 2021 7:38:22 GMT -6
I’m not one to doubt contemporary accounts, but when talking about the situation as it was, even if someone has exceptional memory and notices detail in extreme circumstances, the idea of going by the horse had 4 socks not 3, is not enough, for me anyway, I feel it needs more than that, there are too many variants, a small piece of a jigsaw is not the whole picture, it’s describing a horse not the man.
My apologies, not trying to be difficult, but as an interest I study law and evidence, concluding that the horse’s socks are not a definite identification of the man mounted on it.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 26, 2021 12:20:25 GMT -6
In terms of Custer himself there is little to go on and yet sufficient to bring clarity from Trumpeter Martin. The purpose to capturing the camp was destruction of property and food supply. If the pony herds could be driven off they would have been slaughtered as at Washita. Captives at Washita were collateral damage until, threat developed form camps along the river in sufficient force to jeopardise the 10 company regiment. The capture left lasting impression upon the Cheyennes such that it was predominant to 'their' thinking at Little Bighorn but the Cheyennes and hence Sioux fearing baby killers and rapists loose upon families was their practice of warfare and quite horrendously merciless. We have the detail of Custer's intent from Martin. There is an idea that Custer did his stuff on the fly and whether the decision point was on the bluffs watching kids playing in the valley camp, or earlier as indicated by record of the Officer's call; once committed to attack - that is it. You attack. We simply do not know why that did not take place across Ford B. It can be reasoned out but is fodder for cream bun fights and erstwhile buffing the armour and interests of favoured participants. There was evidence gathered on July 4th, from scouts who left before the siege of Reno Hill, that Custer was shot in the bottom. This was published in July press. Custer was shot in the bottom but that introduces all sorts of complications for Reno which culminated in Chicago 140 years ago. If Custer was down then messages went hot foot to Reno to advise him that, and update him on right wings situation and intent. I reckon Custer died early, followed by he rest of that command and no one knows now, then, or for ever more. Reno may have covered it up. What a pity that written orders were not found on Trumpeter Dose. Reno and Benteen alone, although it is given recently that Nowlan shared the idea, felt the five companies did cross the river into the valley and flee in disorder to where they suffered excessive blunt force traumas. The vast native participant record,besides every other officer present with 7th Cavalry, 7th Infantry, 2nd & 3rd Cavalry and host of accompanying odds and sodsdid NOT see evidence for that. The evidence would have been bodies, dead horses, trails and cartridge shells on the ground besides oral tradition. Not many people are aware that the regiments CO, Sturgis, sent forth a successful covert mission to Cypress Hills in 1877, to discover his sons fate. The fact that his wife visited the battleground then in 1878 with N.A.Miles, speaks that young Sturgis suffered a terrible fate at enemy hands. Anofficer was shot and killed near the river. A final point, for those who wish to make tactical sense of the supposed locations of the five companies destruction; you can't and won't, and I leave a mystery of modern theory and past practice to reconcile. Explain this Companies C & E destroyed together.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 26, 2021 12:46:33 GMT -6
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logan
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Post by logan on Mar 26, 2021 13:00:15 GMT -6
One of the big problems in the aftermath of the British battle I study, is that there was mention of official papers/documents/orders on the bodies being removed and contents not disclosed, in case they contradicted the ‘official’ version of what happened, proof of which recently has been discovered and published.
As the native enemy was not interested in written materials, paper, etc., it was left scattered around the field.
Is it known if anything like this occurred at the Little Bighorn, tampering with and removal of battlefield materials, that may or may not have aided in the understanding afterwards ?
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Post by herosrest on Mar 26, 2021 13:22:34 GMT -6
Yup, a last written message by Custer to Reno, appealing for help, surfaced and was published in the 1920's I think it was. Robert Nightengale for one, picked up on it in more recent days but it does not curry flavour with the established historians and official position which was/is RCoI. I'll see if I can hunt it up. Suppers on, fish... it must Friday. The note was included to the book and is definitely Custer's hand but wasn't taken seriously. There was supposed to have been a note found by, or taken by, Nowlan from Cooke's hand,
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logan
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Post by logan on Mar 26, 2021 13:55:31 GMT -6
Thanks. It is so strange, same is happening right now with this new material I mentioned, being ignored by both historians and enthusiasts alike, as it would go against mostly everything written in the 140 years since the defeat.
How odd, that today there still seems to be a refusal to go with primary source material that could help fill in the gaps, why is that ?
Could it be then, nobody wants the body of works written all this time to be disproved, therefore making most if not all null and void, previous conclusions dubious.
How interesting.
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kenny
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Post by kenny on Mar 26, 2021 14:20:57 GMT -6
There's a author I can't remember his name or the book title. The book did had interviews from those that fought on both sides. There were also detail description of Custer dead troopers. One was First Sergeant James Butler of L company. His body was found a mile or two from Last Stand Hill, still fully cloth and still had his scalp, lying by a dead horse with several dozens rounds of empty shell cartridges. The Author believe that Butler was sent by Custer to get help. But doesn't mention if any message was found on him.
Also the Author mention the description of Custer body. He said Custer had enter wound left temple, exit out right side of the head. Both ears puncture. A enter wound left armpit, exit wound right chest just right of his right tit. A arrow ram into penis pee hole.
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logan
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Post by logan on Mar 26, 2021 14:37:33 GMT -6
In the British battle I study, an officer was found miles away from the fighting, fully clothed, and it has been assumed he had orders to notify other forces of the engagement taking place, but frustratingly, the defenders of him leaving his men state that they were likely verbal orders not written.
Personally, I’m not convinced of this at all, as I feel you need an order signed by a superior officer to justify you fleeing the field, but also to give the message itself credibility.
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kenny
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Posts: 156
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Post by kenny on Mar 26, 2021 15:23:04 GMT -6
In terms of Custer himself there is little to go on and yet sufficient to bring clarity from Trumpeter Martin. The purpose to capturing the camp was destruction of property and food supply. If the pony herds could be driven off they would have been slaughtered as at Washita. Captives at Washita were collateral damage until, threat developed form camps along the river in sufficient force to jeopardise the 10 company regiment. The capture left lasting impression upon the Cheyennes such that it was predominant to 'their' thinking at Little Bighorn but the Cheyennes and hence Sioux fearing baby killers and rapists loose upon families was their practice of warfare and quite horrendously merciless. We have the detail of Custer's intent from Martin. There is an idea that Custer did his stuff on the fly and whether the decision point was on the bluffs watching kids playing in the valley camp, or earlier as indicated by record of the Officer's call; once committed to attack - that is it. You attack. We simply do not know why that did not take place across Ford B. It can be reasoned out but is fodder for cream bun fights and erstwhile buffing the armour and interests of favoured participants. There was evidence gathered on July 4th, from scouts who left before the siege of Reno Hill, that Custer was shot in the bottom. This was published in July press. Custer was shot in the bottom but that introduces all sorts of complications for Reno which culminated in Chicago 140 years ago. If Custer was down then messages went hot foot to Reno to advise him that, and update him on right wings situation and intent. I reckon Custer died early, followed by he rest of that command and no one knows now, then, or for ever more. Reno may have covered it up. What a pity that written orders were not found on Trumpeter Dose. Reno and Benteen alone, although it is given recently that Nowlan shared the idea, felt the five companies did cross the river into the valley and flee in disorder to where they suffered excessive blunt force traumas. The vast native participant record,besides every other officer present with 7th Cavalry, 7th Infantry, 2nd & 3rd Cavalry and host of accompanying odds and sodsdid NOT see evidence for that. The evidence would have been bodies, dead horses, trails and cartridge shells on the ground besides oral tradition. Not many people are aware that the regiments CO, Sturgis, sent forth a successful covert mission to Cypress Hills in 1877, to discover his sons fate. The fact that his wife visited the battleground then in 1878 with N.A.Miles, speaks that young Sturgis suffered a terrible fate at enemy hands. Anofficer was shot and killed near the river. A final point, for those who wish to make tactical sense of the supposed locations of the five companies destruction; you can't and won't, and I leave a mystery of modern theory and past practice to reconcile. Explain this Companies C & E destroyed together. I mention in this thread that C and E companies were together. lbha.proboards.com/thread/2615/dream-battle-little-big-horn
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