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Post by herosrest on Mar 26, 2021 16:13:31 GMT -6
Kenny, still reading your vision. I had a similar once but was interrupted by wild geese.
Logan. The history is alive with dedicated interests and fascinating. There was a later, last note published by an Industrialist Custer nut (fan) and of no interest to anyone at the time. It was buried a hundred years ago and not relevant today.
Ho hum..... little task i've given the wonderfully scrumptious moi! Find the darned book (again). I' shall return with the 'note'. As one F.W. Benteen probably said to company at Ft. Duchesne, shortly before his career imploded; 'I'm just popping around back of the tent.' Yes, 'Q' comes after the 'P'.
I dismissed the note as irrelevant but it should see light. Ew yoooo! Leas out Mister Sturgis...
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logan
Full Member
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Post by logan on Mar 26, 2021 18:58:28 GMT -6
As I say, this is the theories section, so as I’ve suggested previously - Reno was a decoy to draw off warriors from the main camp. Benteen’s hidden wing was to engage any satellite camp containing more warriors that might reinforce those in camp, Custer allocated himself double--duty, hit the warriors from the rear, but the main aim being to capture the non-combatants, and let the warriors be aware this was, is, and turns out to be his intention - as no point in capturing the warriors’ families, if they couldn’t see what had happened. Be visible, be aggressive, be brutally convincing. Custer WAS after the non-combatants, Benteen WAS to engage any warriors who may reinforce the camp defenders, Reno WAS a decoy. This wasn’t to be a massacre (not much help to getting Custer elected) this was to be a coup d’etat...one power overthrowing another. There you have it...my theory ! BTW - excuse any errors, typos, or wrong definitions....I’ve been drinking I’ll correct them tomorrow... herosrest Just read your edited post, still don’t understand it completely due to being a bit...well drunk. Talk tomorrow okay ? Have I posted this on the wrong topic ?!
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Post by herosrest on Mar 27, 2021 6:08:52 GMT -6
Theory and reality. The Washita attack destroyed property and the hostages were collateral until the threat from large camps nearby developed. The point of that mission was education. This was so of the attempt to catch and punish the running Hunkpapa camp in 1873, it was J.J. Reynolds mission that March at Powder River. It was the standard means of having tribes obey TGWF. The long practiced means was the destitution of tribes and enforced reliance and compliance upon handouts at reservations, and education of children and provision by allotment of means to farm.
Custer intended to destroy the tipis, food supply andpony herds to render nomadic wandering impractical. That was the long established method of avoiding genocide which was the only alternative. Bend or die.
Michael Donahue firmly believes that Terry, Custer, and Co. were going to trot along guarding thousands of womwn and children to Agencies where there was no provision in place to house and feed them. That could only be accoplished by negotiation between Chiefs and Government. Terry was there to show the Sioux that they should comply with Grant's edict.
The military were sent to teach a lesson. Sitting Bull was at the same place and intent upon repeating the successful outcome for the Sioux, of Red Cloud's War. Politics had failed and the Army were there to show intent and brute force. To cow Sitting Bull and his followers. Little Bighorn proved to be a spectacular success for Grant.
Capturing thousands, hundreds or just a handfulof hostages, was relative only to the immediate destruction of the camp.Gall, hand over your guns and ponies or we will kill the rest of your family.How! I must talk with the Chiefs. Shortly, several thousand extremely agitated warriors ride away and loiter out of harms way until they can gain advantage or calm down. Hostage taking was no solution. Stand there while we burn your tipis, works. Follow us hundereds of miles to a reservation is far beyond anything sensible or possible. Simply flawed concept.
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Post by custermania on Aug 17, 2021 10:26:12 GMT -6
Yes I’m aware if he’s shot in the head and chest he would done. I was talking about just chest wound. I personally think he got hit early but wasn’t dead. I’m not sure Tom finished him off but it’s plausible. Tom was at the highest point at land stand. Which means a charge would have to go through GC. Som Indian said TC had tear in his eye at end. Maybe cause he finished GC off and didn’t have time for himself.
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Post by custermania on Aug 17, 2021 11:07:08 GMT -6
Why would it be the end of any offensive moments? If GC is injured hit in chest-shoulder area he could still be talking etc. GC would of known to get In the village is the best way to survive. GC often said he’s going to die or get promotion. With everything that happened with Grant, personal finances, the way he talked going into the battle says a lot. Will probably never know the truth and maybe that’s why this story will go on forever. But Tom higher than GC on hill If true tells me he was commander at end of LSH.
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Post by noggy on Aug 18, 2021 2:12:02 GMT -6
Yes I’m aware if he’s shot in the head and chest he would done. I was talking about just chest wound. I personally think he got hit early but wasn’t dead. I’m not sure Tom finished him off but it’s plausible. Tom was at the highest point at land stand. Which means a charge would have to go through GC. Som Indian said TC had tear in his eye at end. Maybe cause he finished GC off and didn’t have time for himself. Well, it depends. I doubt he was shot at Ford B and carried North. For tho advocatinghFord D theory (Iknow not all believe in this), it makes more sense. We can all agree he as not shot at Ford A Noggy
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 18, 2021 7:04:14 GMT -6
Yes I’m aware if he’s shot in the head and chest he would done. I was talking about just chest wound. I personally think he got hit early but wasn’t dead. I’m not sure Tom finished him off but it’s plausible. Tom was at the highest point at land stand. Which means a charge would have to go through GC. Som Indian said TC had tear in his eye at end. Maybe cause he finished GC off and didn’t have time for himself. Well, it depends. I doubt he was shot at Ford B and carried North. For tho advocatinghFord D theory (Iknow not all believe in this), it makes more sense. We can all agree he as not shot at Ford A Noggy Noggy In a recent visit to the battlefield, we were taken to a location by a relative of Tom Laforge. We went near the ford Ds, and he claimed Custer was shot in the timber just east of Gibbons ford, and they pulled back across Cemetery Ridge and stopped forever on Last Stand Hill. Regards Steve
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Post by noggy on Aug 19, 2021 8:48:07 GMT -6
Well, it depends. I doubt he was shot at Ford B and carried North. For tho advocatinghFord D theory (Iknow not all believe in this), it makes more sense. We can all agree he as not shot at Ford A Noggy Noggy In a recent visit to the battlefield, we were taken to a location by a relative of Tom Laforge. We went near the ford Ds, and he claimed Custer was shot in the timber just east of Gibbons ford, and they pulled back across Cemetery Ridge and stopped forever on Last Stand Hill. Regards Steve Hi Steve Stuff like that is interesting, though it of course needs to be consumed with a fair amount of salt, as we say here I envy you guys' trips to the battlefield, and when the world turns normal (well, that won't happen, but at least becomes more normal than now), I'll make the trip myself. There should be a bus route going from here to Montana All the best, Geir
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Post by shan on Aug 19, 2021 10:33:34 GMT -6
Oh dear,
look, much as I don't want to be the guy who ruins the party, we've debated this issue many times before, and the consensus is, that either wound would have killed Custer almost immediately. At best, or so I've been told by an expert on such wounds, his body could have survived for a few minutes, but he would have been completely unaware of this as his mind would have gone into shock. In other words, to anyone trying to minister to him, they would have soon realised that he was dead.
Given that, I've long ago had to abandon any idea that he might have died in or around ford B. Had that been so, I'm almost certain that his command would have returned back to the bluffs in order to decide what they should do next.
So was it possible that it could have happened up at one of the ford D's? Well, I did entertain that notion for awhile, for it makes more sense of where Custer's body was actually found. It even seemed to make some sense of the perceived notion that the command paused on cemetery ridge for between 20 to 30 minutes, for one can imagine that they waiting there in order that the doctor could try and save him.
But the evidence for him taking his command off to those fords has always seemed very thin to me, so although I'm happy to change my mind should anything new come to light, my thinking is that he was shot and killed up on LSH. Now whether this was at the beginning, or at end of the fight that took place up there is another matter, but if I were a betting man, which I'm not, I say that it was probably towards the end.
Shan
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 20, 2021 8:30:37 GMT -6
Oh dear, look, much as I don't want to be the guy who ruins the party, we've debated this issue many times before, and the consensus is that either wound would have killed Custer almost immediately. At best, or so I've been told by an expert on such wounds, his body could have survived for a few minutes, but he would have been completely unaware of this as his mind would have gone into shock. In other words, to anyone trying to minister to him, they would have soon realised that he was dead. Given that, I've long ago had to abandon any idea that he might have died in or around ford B. Had that been so, I'm almost certain that his command would have returned back to the bluffs in order to decide what they should do next. So was it possible that it could have happened up at one of the ford D's? Well, I did entertain that notion for awhile, for it makes more sense of where Custer's body was actually found. It even seemed to make some sense of the perceived notion that the command paused on cemetery ridge for between 20 to 30 minutes, for one can imagine that they waiting there in order that the doctor could try and save him. But the evidence for him taking his command off to those fords has always seemed very thin to me, so although I'm happy to change my mind should anything new come to light, my thinking is that he was shot and killed up on LSH. Now whether this was at the beginning, or at end of the fight that took place up there is another matter, but if I were a betting man, which I'm not, I say that it was probably towards the end. Shan Shan The artifacts support the opinion that Custer went north of LSH. There are artifact discoveries along the old entrance road. For example, there is a picture of a marker along the old entrance road. That picture was taken at the dedication of the new and current entrance road. There is also a site on Battle Ridge Extension that looks down Crazy Horse Draw with cases from cavalry .45-70 and Indian-associated firearms. Regards Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 20, 2021 8:44:37 GMT -6
Noggy In a recent visit to the battlefield, we were taken to a location by a relative of Tom Laforge. We went near the ford Ds, and he claimed Custer was shot in the timber just east of Gibbons ford, and they pulled back across Cemetery Ridge and stopped forever on Last Stand Hill. Regards Steve Hi Steve Stuff like that is interesting, though it of course needs to be consumed with a fair amount of salt, as we say here I envy you guys' trips to the battlefield, and when the world turns normal (well, that won't happen, but at least becomes more normal than now), I'll make the trip myself. There should be a bus route going from here to Montana All the best, Geir Agreed and something I have done as a law enforcement officer in charge of investigations. This April, we had Sioux, Cheyenne, Arapaho, and Crow visit separately. They did not know each other and told their family accounts. They told of their locations to the north. There is a connection between Southern Cheyenne and Arapaho. We have the names of over 20 Arapaho who were there with their families. They are not part of the 5 Arapaho that came into the village and raised suspicion. The Crow, of course, was on the other side, but they lived and still do in the area. He pointed out a location where his grandmother told him that Custer was shot there. He is related to Tom Laforge, and his family was in the village. My friend is a Marine and a Crow. He owns Cedar Coulee. He was along with us. Interestingly, he did not know the Crow from Ranchester who was giving us the family account. They learned that they were related through the LaForges Regards Steve
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Post by noggy on Aug 21, 2021 14:43:07 GMT -6
Agreed and something I have done as a law enforcement officer in charge of investigations. This April, we had Sioux, Cheyenne, Arapaho, and Crow visit separately. They did not know each other and told their family accounts. They told of their locations to the north. There is a connection between Southern Cheyenne and Arapaho. We have the names of over 20 Arapaho who were there with their families. They are not part of the 5 Arapaho that came into the village and raised suspicion. This makes me wonder about a thing. In regards to "big events" or even just important figures, with time, the amount of people who were there or are related to "Mr Bigshot" seems to encrease. Examples from my own country, is that seemingly EVERYONE (my own family included) claims to be direct descendants of the first king who managed to unite Norway into something which actually looked like a country back in the 800s, and that while it there were a maximum of 200 people there, today thousands of people claim to have been at the Sex Pistols concert in Oslo 1977 (the phenomenon ended up being the subject of a book). I'm sure there are similar things all over the world, the US included. As a music lover, I know this is true for a lot of concerts at least. Maybe to a degree, and I don't mean necessarily the people you talked to, some NAs can be that way with either LBH or famous leaders like Crazy Horse etc? Is there some kind of possibility of "bragging rights" here? If I were a Soiux or Cheyenne, I'd be kinda proud if my ancestors took part in such a historical event, especially if he was some cool guy. Maybe not so much if his name was Rotten Stomach, which is my favorite Sioux name of all times, but still.. All the best, Geir
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Post by shan on Aug 22, 2021 3:57:33 GMT -6
AZ Ranger.
I will concede this about the physical evidence you mention as being North and West of LSH, and I think its something that's often overlooked in any discussions of the battle. As far as I'm aware, there were no reports of any members of either E or F troop being found anywhere on the field other in and around LSH or Deep ravine.
Now I maybe wrong about this, and if I am, then I hope someone can put me right. But if true, then this seems to me to be strong indication that they'd left the general Calhoun area some time before the serious fighting began, certainly early enough to be unable to get involved. In other words, they were far enough away to be busy doing something much further North. Now the question is, what?
As I said, I'm willing to accept that they may have gone as far as the ford D's if, we can find some other Indian testimony other than that of JSIT. I'm not say that he was a liar, far from it, but in the end, he wasn't there, he saw nothing, so his account is hearsay, in which case, I would like something else to back him up.
As to the firing refuse scattered around and beyond LSH that you talk about, well, I think that its quite possible that some fighting went on North that tiny enclave, which was, I think, all that was left to them as the battle moved to its end. There was, or rather is, some evidence that there may have been an exchange of fire between Custer's men and those belonging to Wolf Tooth's group, who'd been shadowing the troops as they moved North. And then there are those accounts which seem to infer that E troop was located somewhere around the museum complex when their horse were run off, and those rumours of course, of some markers being located in the area.
Lastly, I'd like to raise one of the things that has always puzzled me, which is that line of bodies, some seven or eight if I remember rightly, which stretch roughly from under Greasy grass hill, over towards Deep Raving. I was re-reading Richard Hardorf's " Markers and Testimony's" the other night, a concise, well argued account, in which he seems to imply, that before things went downhill in the Calhoun area, Keogh had ordered a squad to head off in that direction with a view to opening a route, should there be a need to attack across the ford at the end of Deep ravine.
Now maybe I've read that before and have forgotten it, but I have to say, it seems a highly unlikely explanation for those bodies. But then on the other hand, without out us knowing how there were arranged, in other words, which direction they were heading, or indeed, which company they belonged to ~ anyone know if this was mentioned anywhere, there are several possible explanations.
For myself, I've always wondered if these were men who'd managed to get across Deep Ravine and were heading back the way they came. If memory serves me right, there are at least two markers on the south side of the ravine, which, if genuine, indicate that at least two men made it across.
But then there's also another explanation which seems to me to be much more likely. And that is that they were men from C company who fled North to get out of the way of Lame White Man's charge.
Shan
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 23, 2021 10:42:01 GMT -6
Agreed and something I have done as a law enforcement officer in charge of investigations. This April, we had Sioux, Cheyenne, Arapaho, and Crow visit separately. They did not know each other and told their family accounts. They told of their locations to the north. There is a connection between Southern Cheyenne and Arapaho. We have the names of over 20 Arapaho who were there with their families. They are not part of the 5 Arapaho that came into the village and raised suspicion. This makes me wonder about a thing. In regards to "big events" or even just important figures, with time, the amount of people who were there or are related to "Mr Bigshot" seems to encrease. Examples from my own country, is that seemingly EVERYONE (my own family included) claims to be direct descendants of the first king who managed to unite Norway into something which actually looked like a country back in the 800s, and that while it there were a maximum of 200 people there, today thousands of people claim to have been at the Sex Pistols concert in Oslo 1977 (the phenomenon ended up being the subject of a book). I'm sure there are similar things all over the world, the US included. As a music lover, I know this is true for a lot of concerts at least. Maybe to a degree, and I don't mean necessarily the people you talked to, some NAs can be that way with either LBH or famous leaders like Crazy Horse etc? Is there some kind of possibility of "bragging rights" here? If I were a Soiux or Cheyenne, I'd be kinda proud if my ancestors took part in such a historical event, especially if he was some cool guy. Maybe not so much if his name was Rotten Stomach, which is my favorite Sioux name of all times, but still.. All the best, Geir That's what makes this interesting. They are not related to the big names. Claiming to be Southern Cheyenne is not what one would expect for bragging rights. Arapaho claiming to be with Southern Cheyenne because they were married to Cheyenne women seems logical. To this day Southern Cheyenne and Arapaho are on the same reservation. Living together since at least 1876 Actually, it is earlier but there is something about '76. I believe the Sacred Arrows were there and they were brought there by Southern Cheyenne. I believe Southern Cheyenne Dog Soldiers were there also. Regards Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 23, 2021 11:15:27 GMT -6
AZ Ranger. I will concede this about the physical evidence you mention as being North and West of LSH, and I think its something that's often overlooked in any discussions of the battle. As far as I'm aware, there were no reports of any members of either E or F troop being found anywhere on the field other in and around LSH or Deep ravine. Now I maybe wrong about this, and if I am, then I hope someone can put me right. But if true, then this seems to me to be strong indication that they'd left the general Calhoun area some time before the serious fighting began, certainly early enough to be unable to get involved. In other words, they were far enough away to be busy doing something much further North. Now the question is, what? If you look at Maguire's number four map you will see two routes of the soldiers to LSH. Clearly Curley states the five companies spilt in MTC. He has the gray horses moving toward MTF. Since E and F were together then they probably were still together and remained close to the end. Martin puts Custer with them with his location of where he was sent back with the message.
Curley states the others went straight across MTC. They would have moved straight across from Middle Coulee. They climbed out at the drainage leading to Luce. A returning Cheyenne hunting party made contact with the soldiers in the drainage leading to Luce. The artifacts in that location are consistent with these accounts. As I said, I'm willing to accept that they may have gone as far as the ford D's if, we can find some other Indian testimony other than that of JSIT. I'm not say that he was a liar, far from it, but in the end, he wasn't there, he saw nothing, so his account is hearsay, in which case, I would like something else to back him up. The Southern Cheyenne claim soldiers were there. The Arapaho claim the soldiers were there. Even a Crow who was related to LaForge claim the soldiers were there. During the construction of the old entrance road artifacts were found supporting soldier moving between Ford Ds and Cemetery Ridge. The Kellog marker was along the old entrance road along the west fork of BRE.As to the firing refuse scattered around and beyond LSH that you talk about, well, I think that its quite possible that some fighting went on North that tiny enclave, which was, I think, all that was left to them as the battle moved to its end. There was, or rather is, some evidence that there may have been an exchange of fire between Custer's men and those belonging to Wolf Tooth's group, who'd been shadowing the troops as they moved North. And then there are those accounts which seem to infer that E troop was located somewhere around the museum complex when their horse were run off, and those rumours of course, of some markers being located in the area. There were two markers near the area where the Custer Trading Post is located. Some suggest they were the Sgt Major and another trooper. Lastly, I'd like to raise one of the things that has always puzzled me, which is that line of bodies, some seven or eight if I remember rightly, which stretch roughly from under Greasy grass hill, over towards Deep Raving. I was re-reading Richard Hardorf's " Markers and Testimony's" the other night, a concise, well argued account, in which he seems to imply, that before things went downhill in the Calhoun area, Keogh had ordered a squad to head off in that direction with a view to opening a route, should there be a need to attack across the ford at the end of Deep ravine. That is the line that appears on Maguire's number 4 map. He could have only been looking at bodies. There is drawing showing Sioux chasing the gray horses across there if I recall correctly. On the battlefield you can not see all the markers at one location. It covers around 1,800 yards. In my view this was end of those moving north and not under heavy contact. They kept moving in line leaving those killed along the same travel line.
Some suggest it was a movement to drive off the Indians. I find that highly unlikely. How would they maintain a line over 1.800 yards wide and when they can't see each other? Why would the bodies be online from such an event? I think it was more likely a line of movement with someone shooting the last soldier in line.Now maybe I've read that before and have forgotten it, but I have to say, it seems a highly unlikely explanation for those bodies. But then on the other hand, without out us knowing how there were arranged, in other words, which direction they were heading, or indeed, which company they belonged to ~ anyone know if this was mentioned anywhere, there are several possible explanations. Again early on would have fewer Indians so the movement north would have fewer casualties as they moved. I think you can clearly see that the movement from the direction of LSH down Deep Ravine had a lot more Indians engaged.
For myself, I've always wondered if these were men who'd managed to get across Deep Ravine and were heading back the way they came. If memory serves me right, there are at least two markers on the south side of the ravine, which, if genuine, indicate that at least two men made it across. I believe these are overlapping events separated in time. You will also see markers further west as if engaged from Indians crossing there. I believe they were protecting the Sacred Items there. Looking at the markers and Maguire you see that the path moving north never went to Deep Gulley (I call it that since it all Deep Ravine. So if they were returning first down Cemetery Ravine and Crossing over to Deep Ravine they would have no clue that Deep Gulley would be there. To follow the path back they needed to egress Deep Ravine east of Deep Gulley where you can see the markers. I believe those markers were from the movement over and had nothing to do with end movement down Deep Ravine.But then there's also another explanation which seems to me to be much more likely. And that is that they were men from C company who fled North to get out of the way of Lame White Man's charge. Shan The field is full of Indians yet they could only kill them (C) one at time while they moved in line? I believe that C was in the lead of a retrograde which ended with all five companies fixed and destroyed
Regards
Steve
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