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Post by noggy on Aug 24, 2021 5:29:51 GMT -6
That's what makes this interesting. They are not related to the big names. Claiming to be Southern Cheyenne is not what one would expect for bragging rights. Arapaho claiming to be with Southern Cheyenne because they were married to Cheyenne women seems logical. To this day Southern Cheyenne and Arapaho are on the same reservation. Living together since at least 1876 Actually, it is earlier but there is something about '76. I believe the Sacred Arrows were there and they were brought there by Southern Cheyenne. I believe Southern Cheyenne Dog Soldiers were there also. Regards Steve I like stuff like this. The traditional story is that there were only 5 Arapaho warriors at LBH, but that's because those out of the 5 who spoke about the battle never mentioned any more being there (I may be wrong..). But that can make sense for a number of reasons. First of all is the size of the village, so ofc there could be other Arapahos there unbeknownst to the 5. The mixing between Arapaho also probably makes it more difficult to clearify who felt they identified as belonging to what tribe, but for instance Pretty Nose was by most accounts (and her Arapaho decendants) Arapaho, not Cheyenne. I'm at work now so can't check up on what Fred classified her as in Participants. (Here's an article about a marine, which I recall you were too, which mentions her projects.aljazeera.com/2014/native-veterans/soldier-wolf/index.html ) I would find it a little strange if no memebers from these Arapaho families you mentioned were in some degree involved in the "releasing" of the 5 from Sioux custody, after initially being believed to be spies, but then spoken for by Two Moons. Then again, why "tell on" others? NAs feared reprisals for LBH so shutting up about people from your own tribe makes a lot of sense. If the whites only thought there were 5 from the tribe there, it would probably be for the best. It woud be of great interest for both historians and I assume the official history of the Arapaho if this could be expanded upon, I should think. All the best, Geir
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Post by shan on Aug 24, 2021 10:18:34 GMT -6
AZ Ranger
I'm afraid I have probably looked at the map you talk about, but I can't remember seeing the two routes you talk of. So okay, lets clear up a few points.
I think by now most people have come to accept that Custer's force divided sometime after they arrived in MTC, and knowing your posts on both boards, I'm more than happy to accept what you've managed to find out about the likely route those companies took before they who eventually arrive on Calhoun hill.
What's less clear is the route companies E and F took after leaving the river. Most people think that they moved up Deep coulee, coming under increasing pressure as they did, until finally, after having re-untied with the other three companies on Calhoun, Custer, accompanied by E and F, headed North, keeping to the East of the ridge, where after having past LSH, he may have then gone on down to the fords D.
Now, you state that the maps indicates that companies E and F didn't unite with the others, but instead, moved directly North towards LSH. So what route did they take? I'm assuming that after having come out of Deep coulee, they moved under the slope of Greasy Grass ridge until they hit the barrier of Deep ravine, then, having found it difficult to cross, they followed it East until they came to a point where they could cross it. And just to be clear, you think that that string of dead men along that route, may have been men at the back of these companies who shot by following Indians.
I have a couple of questions here. Most people think that when the companies all united on Calhoun, Custer called a quick officers meeting in order to let everyone know what his plans were. So if they didn't unite, how did the men on Calhoun what he had in mind?
You see the thing is, wherever he went, either Custer didn't bother to keep an eye of what was happening back on Calhoun, or, he got into trouble so quickly, he couldn't extricate himself in order to go and help.
So many questions, and so few answers, but I think that one will do for now.
Shan
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 25, 2021 10:32:26 GMT -6
That's what makes this interesting. They are not related to the big names. Claiming to be Southern Cheyenne is not what one would expect for bragging rights. Arapaho claiming to be with Southern Cheyenne because they were married to Cheyenne women seems logical. To this day Southern Cheyenne and Arapaho are on the same reservation. Living together since at least 1876 Actually, it is earlier but there is something about '76. I believe the Sacred Arrows were there and they were brought there by Southern Cheyenne. I believe Southern Cheyenne Dog Soldiers were there also. Regards Steve I like stuff like this. The traditional story is that there were only 5 Arapaho warriors at LBH, but that's because those out of the 5 who spoke about the battle never mentioned any more being there (I may be wrong..). But that can make sense for a number of reasons. First of all is the size of the village, so ofc there could be other Arapahos there unbeknownst to the 5. The mixing between Arapaho also probably makes it more difficult to clearify who felt they identified as belonging to what tribe, but for instance Pretty Nose was by most accounts (and her Arapaho decendants) Arapaho, not Cheyenne. I'm at work now so can't check up on what Fred classified her as in Participants. (Here's an article about a marine, which I recall you were too, which mentions her projects.aljazeera.com/2014/native-veterans/soldier-wolf/index.html ) That is only the traditional story of those 5 Arapahos. It has nothing to do with Arapahos living with the Southern Cheyenne. I would find it a little strange if no memebers from these Arapaho families you mentioned were in some degree involved in the "releasing" of the 5 from Sioux custody, after initially being believed to be spies, but then spoken for by Two Moons. Then again, why "tell on" others? NAs feared reprisals for LBH so shutting up about people from your own tribe makes a lot of sense. If the whites only thought there were 5 from the tribe there, it would probably be for the best. It woud be of great interest for both historians and I assume the official history of the Arapaho if this could be expanded upon, I should think. All the best, Geir Geir
We met with a chief Arapaho historian this April. He came along with the Arapaho person my author friend had invited. The Arapaho and Cheyenne have lived together for a long time. The difference is that the 5 Arapaho that rode into the camp had worked with the US Government before. The Arapaho in the camp were also suspicious of them. It was not because they were Arapaho rather who they had worked for previously.
Regards
Steve
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Post by custerkiller on Nov 13, 2021 17:34:28 GMT -6
Which ford? Which guidon? Whose buckskin jacket? Where is the MOST PROBABLE location of four Cheyenne youths? Which ford - Putting five companies down at Ford B and attempting a river crossing would be something like pouring a bucket of water into a Coke bottle. Ford C is the same only the Coke bottle becomes an eye dropper. The terrain at Ford D, on the other hand, is the only place where five companies can adequately deploy for a doctrinal river crossing during an attack. Which guidon - There were by my count five company guidons, plus an unauthorized general officers divisional guidon. The guidon bearer stays with the commander at all times. That is his job to denote the location of the commander of that particular echelon of command. Which buckskin jacket - I agree with Tom, in that there are too many accounts of Custer having taken his off to be ignored. It was a very hot day. The levels of trail dust must have been extraordinarily high. Under those conditions a light colored shirt, covered with dust may very well look like a buckskin jacket at some distance. In addition several people were reported to have worn buckskin from time to time during that campaign. So Einstein...he had a buckskin jacket but removed it during the march? With Fatal Battle imminent, you don't believe he would have put it back on? Is this really from a US Military officer?...come on man!The Cheyenne Circle was in the northern portion of the village complex, above Ford B. Show me one battle in all of recorded history where combat and confusion do not walk together hand in hand down the Primrose Lane of the narrative. . We do have a quaint habit in the U S Army of trying to recover our dead and wounded when it is possible. Yep they dragged his gutshot body back in the saddle again.....and bravely ran away from about four men with Yellow Boy Rifles.Either of Custer's wounds would be immediately or near immediately fatal. Really? You think so? Seriously? So you don't believe the Indian Accounts that they dropped his failure ass in the medicine tail like a bad habit? You don't believe Custer was trying to end run to get to the women and children? I hope your retired Einstein.Doctor Lord was found near the top of Last Stand Hill and presumably one of the last to fall. Doctors in the U S Army are generally found at the place of most urgent need. My ancestors killed him immediately and that is why they immediately retreated. You don't need to be a rocket scientist einstein. Just a good listener to the facts and oral histories.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Nov 15, 2021 13:51:58 GMT -6
I think you are about five years too late with that reply/attack as this fellow does not post here anymore.
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Post by noggy on Nov 15, 2021 14:28:08 GMT -6
I think you are about five years too late with that reply/attack as this fellow does not post here anymore. One thing is the phrase "Indian accounts". Damn, I think you could write about 20 different takes on the battle/parts of the battle, just relying on them. When it comes to Custer and Ford B, Michno's take on the different stories told by Indians and especially analysis of White Cow Bull' often accepted without any critical thinking was one of my first "Wow, this is going to be a long one..." moments when starting to read up on the battle more closely. And yes, I'd be surprised if Chuck answers here now! Geir
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Post by netwin on Nov 30, 2021 14:06:05 GMT -6
Trump campaign was successful.
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Post by tubman13 on Dec 11, 2021 6:12:13 GMT -6
WTF, then Crook had a resounding victory at the Rosebud. I voted for Trump, but this is the wrong place.
Regards, Tom
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Post by tubman13 on Dec 11, 2021 6:21:09 GMT -6
Geir, pay attention to Steve's chase of some of these Indian stories, believe it or not there is still a great deal out there. It is the looking that is difficult. I spent a good deal of time at Standing Rock last Summer, with Steve being stonewalled regarding John Grass/Charging Bear's family. We have garnered much without the family, but there is information there.
Regards, Tom
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Post by noggy on Dec 12, 2021 3:11:39 GMT -6
Geir, pay attention to Steve's chase of some of these Indian stories, believe it or not there is still a great deal out there. It is the looking that is difficult. I spent a good deal of time at Standing Rock last Summer, with Steve being stonewalled regarding John Grass/Charging Bear's family. We have garnered much without the family, but there is information there. Regards, Tom Hi Tom. Indian testimonies are interesting, but we have to look at them with the same critical look view study all sources. We know that also the Indians were capable of exaggeration, lies and making plain old mistakes. But of course not everyone, and I personally acknowledge oral traditions like this since it has a different "function" and value than information passed on verbally does in out own culture. However, it does not make everything gospel. All the best, Geir
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 12, 2021 12:40:30 GMT -6
Geir, pay attention to Steve's chase of some of these Indian stories, believe it or not there is still a great deal out there. It is the looking that is difficult. I spent a good deal of time at Standing Rock last Summer, with Steve being stonewalled regarding John Grass/Charging Bear's family. We have garnered much without the family, but there is information there. Regards, Tom Hi Tom. Indian testimonies are interesting, but we have to look at them with the same critical look view study all sources. We know that also the Indians were capable of exaggeration, lies and making plain old mistakes. But of course not everyone, and I personally acknowledge oral traditions like this since it has a different "function" and value than information passed on verbally does in out own culture. However, it does not make everything gospel. All the best, Geir It does allow for fewer introduced errors. They live in the same place since the battle. The Nothern Cheyenne are close by and the Crow live adjacent to the battlefield. The families are large by name and they recall the family accounts. Regards Steve
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Post by noggy on Dec 13, 2021 6:51:09 GMT -6
Hi Tom. Indian testimonies are interesting, but we have to look at them with the same critical look view study all sources. We know that also the Indians were capable of exaggeration, lies and making plain old mistakes. But of course not everyone, and I personally acknowledge oral traditions like this since it has a different "function" and value than information passed on verbally does in out own culture. However, it does not make everything gospel. All the best, Geir It does allow for fewer introduced errors. They live in the same place since the battle. The Nothern Cheyenne are close by and the Crow live adjacent to the battlefield. The families are large by name and they recall the family accounts. Regards Steve But there are still margins for error here, especially after 150 years +, so they must be viewed with the same academic scrutiny as outher sources. All the best, Geir
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 13, 2021 14:19:56 GMT -6
It does allow for fewer introduced errors. They live in the same place since the battle. The Nothern Cheyenne are close by and the Crow live adjacent to the battlefield. The families are large by name and they recall the family accounts. Regards Steve But there are still margins for error here, especially after 150 years +, so they must be viewed with the same academic scrutiny as outher sources. All the best, Geir I apply law enforcement scrutiny for both criminal and civil investigations. Most of what we look at here could only reach a civil standard of more likely than not. That is a good place to be since it allows for other theories. The Indian families surviving can be found in almost the same locations as the battle and so the accounts remain local and with first-hand visits to the locations when they are related to them. At a short distance from Busby down the highway that parallels the Rosebud and about where Custer turned toward the LBH you see a mailbox. When you click on the photo it rights itself. Regards Steve
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Post by backwater on Dec 23, 2021 7:10:35 GMT -6
6/'76 gotta love it. Family history's are tough to pick at, pride, and nothing solid to argue except gut feeling and little facts/records especially in laststandville. Ever watch antique roadshow? Family lore gets banged up often.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 23, 2021 9:55:00 GMT -6
6/'76 gotta love it. Family history's are tough to pick at, pride, and nothing solid to argue except gut feeling and little facts/records especially in laststandville. Ever watch antique roadshow? Family lore gets banged up often. Nice catch on the mailbox. I think humans have recorded history in various methods. I ride in a wash that at one place it looks like an Indian Art show. Seems to me whatever method they used there was at the time a state-of-the-art method. Whether it was oral accounts or drawings the people decide when they grow out of it and move to a different method. That some are still using the family oral accounts is not our choice rather it is theirs. I see the significance in that these families remain in the same locations over time. My great-grandfather lived in Minnesota. My grandfather moved to California to find work. My father took us wherever he was promoted to while working for IBM. I did not have a chance to hear the family accounts since I wasn't around my elders. Where my friend lives he talks of his grandmothers living in Tipis on their property. We can see his son's house from his yard. There is a lot more exchange going on including family history. My grandfather told me about visiting the LBH battlefields as a young man. I was eight years old and don't recall much. He found 5 cases I got to hold them and recall that they were wider than my hand. I don't know much more than that and I wish I had the opportunity to spend more time. Regards Steve
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