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Post by benteen on Mar 24, 2016 15:09:49 GMT -5
Dan Do you think Crittenden might have been the inspiration for Capt. St. Jacques, the one eyed officer, in Rio Grande? Regards Dave Dave, Anything is possible. There are stranger things. Be Well Dan |
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Post by benteen on Apr 25, 2016 18:12:28 GMT -5
The famed Cassilly Adams painting of "Custers Last Stand" depicts a long haired Custer ( his hair was cropped) waving a sword ( He didnt even have a saber with him) amidst blue jacketed soldiers ( Most of whom would have doffed their blouses because of the heat) and Indians carrying Zulu style shields and Seminole and Apache-style head gear. But other than that.....
Be Well
Dan
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Post by tubman13 on Apr 26, 2016 5:53:09 GMT -5
Dan, It is called Creative License. I have seen that in play on at least one of these boards, in the written form. That being said, that picture, which hung in a tavern in Severna Park, MD where my parents took us out for crab cakes and such, along with "They Died With Their Boots On", was what drew my interest to GAC. The background in the picture is not all that far off. www.mardecortesbaja.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/CustersLastFightBaja.jpgRegards, Tom |
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Post by benteen on Apr 26, 2016 13:25:26 GMT -5
Dan, It is called Creative License. I have seen that in play on at least one of these boards, in the written form. That being said, that picture, which hung in a tavern in Severna Park, MD where my parents took us out for crab cakes and such, along with "They Died With Their Boots On", was what drew my interest to GAC. The background in the picture is not all that far off. www.mardecortesbaja.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/CustersLastFightBaja.jpgRegards, Tom Tom, Glad you posted this. I have always read that the Anheuser Busch painting was the most famous painting, and hung in taverns everywhere. Had no idea who Cassilly Adams was. Never knew he was the one who painted it. Be Well Dan PS...What better place for Crab Cakes than Maryland. |
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Post by edavids on Apr 26, 2016 18:27:53 GMT -5
Lots of good crabcake memories in Maryland!
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Post by benteen on Apr 28, 2016 14:59:00 GMT -5
" Owing to the broken character of the country, Renos command could not retreat in order and it looked to us like utter confusion, but we afterwards found them cool and level headed and as a rule with their wits about them. There had been no way to get out of this bottom except in disorder as we afterwards found on investigating the ground (LT Gibson Co H )
Be Well
Dan
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Post by tubman13 on Apr 28, 2016 15:05:02 GMT -5
Dan,
I have always spent too much time in taverns and bars. Got started at an early age, the first time I remember seeing the picture, I was about 6.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by benteen on Apr 28, 2016 15:08:02 GMT -5
Dan, I have always spent too much time in taverns and bars. Got started at an early age, the first time I remember seeing the picture, I was about 6. Regards, Tom Tom, You can never spend too much time in a tavern.  Be Well Dan |
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Post by jodak on Apr 28, 2016 18:11:20 GMT -5
" Owing to the broken character of the country, Renos command could not retreat in order and it looked to us like utter confusion, but we afterwards found them cool and level headed and as a rule with their wits about them. There had been no way to get out of this bottom except in disorder as we afterwards found on investigating the ground (LT Gibson Co H ) Be Well Dan Dan, I think Gibson is being very generous here. I've never seen anything else that indicated the ground precluded an orderly retrograde, but I do recall seeing something that said that the valley floor was littered with tree trunks and stumps from where the Indians had cut the trees in the winter so that their ponies could eat the bark. However, I think that I have seen that in only one account, so I don't know how accurate it is. If true, then I guess it could serve to disrupt and disorganize Reno's "charges" in both directions. |
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 29, 2016 13:23:46 GMT -5
" Owing to the broken character of the country, Renos command could not retreat in order and it looked to us like utter confusion, but we afterwards found them cool and level headed and as a rule with their wits about them. There had been no way to get out of this bottom except in disorder as we afterwards found on investigating the ground (LT Gibson Co H ) Be Well Dan A well-trained and disciplined command led by resolute officers would have been able to fall back, retreat, charge or whatever you want to call it in a fairly organized manner. Most accounts state any order to fall back was not heard resulting in a piece meal retreat with no skirmishers or other holding action. Regardless of the terrain a better-organized retreat would have resulted in less casualties. However, it doesn't seem like any officer was really in command if any orders were given or at least heard. I believe Varnum stated: "For God's sake, don't run!" From his statement and other's it appears there was no organized or disciplined fall back, retreat, charge or whatever. Not to put full blame on lack of leadership by Reno let's not forget Weir's Retreat or fall back after he realized Indians had sported the Weir Advancement. Instead of putting skirmishers on line to hold off Indians it was every man for themselves. If it wasn't for Godfrey who realized something had to be done and ordered skirmishers out the Weir Advance could have ended up like Custer's command. Suffice it to say there were many failings by officers throughout the entire affair. The only one who had the sense to realize what needed to be done was Benteen and even he gets criticized by the pro-Custer Crowd! |
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Post by benteen on Apr 29, 2016 14:25:22 GMT -5
Dan,
I think Gibson is being very generous here. I've never seen anything else that indicated the ground precluded an orderly retrograde, but I do recall seeing something that said that the valley floor was littered with tree trunks and stumps from where the Indians had cut the trees in the winter so that their ponies could eat the bark. However, I think that I have seen that in only one account, so I don't know how accurate it is. If true, then I guess it could serve to disrupt and disorganize Reno's "charges" in both directions.[/quote]
Jodak,
Thanks for the response. I agree with you, I have never read anywhere that anyone even Reno himself put any onus or blame for anything due to terrain features. Thats why I posted it thought it would be interesting.
Be Well
Dan
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Post by benteen on Apr 29, 2016 14:35:19 GMT -5
" Owing to the broken character of the country, Renos command could not retreat in order and it looked to us like utter confusion, but we afterwards found them cool and level headed and as a rule with their wits about them. There had been no way to get out of this bottom except in disorder as we afterwards found on investigating the ground (LT Gibson Co H ) Be Well Dan A well-trained and disciplined command led by resolute officers would have been able to fall back, retreat, charge or whatever you want to call it in a fairly organized manner. Most accounts state any order to fall back was not heard resulting in a piece meal retreat with no skirmishers or other holding action. Regardless of the terrain a better-organized retreat would have resulted in less casualties. However, it doesn't seem like any officer was really in command if any orders were given or at least heard. I believe Varnum stated: "For God's sake, don't run!" From his statement and other's it appears there was no organized or disciplined fall back, retreat, charge or whatever. Not to put full blame on lack of leadership by Reno let's not forget Weir's Retreat or fall back after he realized Indians had sported the Weir Advancement. Instead of putting skirmishers on line to hold off Indians it was every man for themselves. If it wasn't for Godfrey who realized something had to be done and ordered skirmishers out the Weir Advance could have ended up like Custer's command. Suffice it to say there were many failings by officers throughout the entire affair. The only one who had the sense to realize what needed to be done was Benteen and even he gets criticized by the pro-Custer Crowd! Horse, I do not question Renos decision to leave the timber, however what you bring up has been a sore spot with me, and that is as you point out, the WAY he left the timber. Is it the battalion commanders responsibility to be sure everyone gets the word. Or is up to each company commander to see that it is done. Another thing, what about the trumpeter, in those days he was the modern day radio operator who is always with the commander. If he wasnt with Reno, why wasnt he, and if he was with Reno why didnt Reno utilize him. Be Well Dan |
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 29, 2016 15:34:04 GMT -5
Obviously there was confusion and mis-communication taking place during the Reno Advance. A number of companies were out advancing toward the village while others were loitering around the timber. Apparently company commanders were not in sync with each other and when a group of Indians infiltrated up-close and overly personal with Reno and his immediate command and hit Bloody Knife panic and/or loss of cohesion took place. I'm not a military man (even though I served during the Vietnam Period) but it would seem there would have to be some chain of command in place to let those in advance of Reno as to what is taking place. From all accounts Reno was in a good position to hold out but it was the warrior's infiltration that caused extreme distress and/or panic that Indians were about to over run the position that Reno ordred a mount, then dismount, then mount.
Even though I served during the Vietnam Period I was never in combat so cannot know what a sudden and expected attack causes. I can only assume that it was: "everyone take cover, and/or run!"
I am not blaming Reno but it seems that any officer who served during the Civil war would have enough experience to deal with a up-close and unexpected attack.
Obviously fighting Indians is not the same as fighting Johnny Reb who would take you as a prisoner while the NAs would just as soon chop you into pieces. That may have been a motivating factor in running for one's life!
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Post by chardvc on Apr 30, 2016 0:38:32 GMT -5
" Owing to the broken character of the country, Renos command could not retreat in order and it looked to us like utter confusion, but we afterwards found them cool and level headed and as a rule with their wits about them. There had been no way to get out of this bottom except in disorder as we afterwards found on investigating the ground (LT Gibson Co H ) Be Well Dan A well-trained and disciplined command led by resolute officers would have been able to fall back, retreat, charge or whatever you want to call it in a fairly organized manner. Most accounts state any order to fall back was not heard resulting in a piece meal retreat with no skirmishers or other holding action. Regardless of the terrain a better-organized retreat would have resulted in less casualties. However, it doesn't seem like any officer was really in command if any orders were given or at least heard. I believe Varnum stated: "For God's sake, don't run!" From his statement and other's it appears there was no organized or disciplined fall back, retreat, charge or whatever. Not to put full blame on lack of leadership by Reno let's not forget Weir's Retreat or fall back after he realized Indians had sported the Weir Advancement. Instead of putting skirmishers on line to hold off Indians it was every man for themselves. If it wasn't for Godfrey who realized something had to be done and ordered skirmishers out the Weir Advance could have ended up like Custer's command. Suffice it to say there were many failings by officers throughout the entire affair. The only one who had the sense to realize what needed to be done was Benteen and even he gets criticized by the pro-Custer Crowd!
Hi crzhrs,
I'm not convinced that all the command was well-trained and disciplined. The more I read, the more I see a body of men with very mixed levels of combat experience with even greater variations in experience in fighting native Americans in large numbers. The command (once in action) may well have wanted to advance, retreat, manoeuvre and fight in an organised way but there were simply not enough trained men below them to understand, have confidence in, and above all trust implicitly, the orders demanded of them. It's apparent not only in the valley but also on the Hills later in the action.
On the government side the only place where combat trust begins to appear (and is able to be related to future generations) is on Reno Hill where generally both officers and men make clear in their accounts that Benteen was an officer that they could trust. But by that point the command had passed the fear and panic stages of combat stress and had settled down to a survival level of stability. If the native Americans had infiltrated the hill defence sufficiently the cycle may well have broken down again.
From the troopers (and some officers') perspective, there was no obvious escape route from the hill and therefore better to stay put. That was certainly not the case in the valley.
Regards,
Mark
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Post by fred on Apr 30, 2016 6:37:40 GMT -5
I'm not convinced that all the command was well-trained and disciplined. The more I read, the more I see a body of men with very mixed levels of combat experience with even greater variations in experience in fighting native Americans in large numbers. The command (once in action) may well have wanted to advance, retreat, manoeuvre and fight in an organised way but there were simply not enough trained men below them to understand, have confidence in, and above all trust implicitly, the orders demanded of them. It's apparent not only in the valley but also on the Hills later in the action. On the government side the only place where combat trust begins to appear (and is able to be related to future generations) is on Reno Hill where generally both officers and men make clear in their accounts that Benteen was an officer that they could trust. But by that point the command had passed the fear and panic stages of combat stress and had settled down to a survival level of stability. If the native Americans had infiltrated the hill defence sufficiently the cycle may well have broken down again. From the troopers (and some officers') perspective, there was no obvious escape route from the hill and therefore better to stay put. That was certainly not the case in the valley. This is an extremely good post; in my opinion, 100% on the money. Nice job, Mark. Best wishes, Fred. |
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