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Post by benteen on Mar 4, 2016 15:04:07 GMT -5
[/p] Can you tell me what company the two who did not receive were in?
Regards, Tom
[/quote] Tom, Madden was K company McGuire was C company Which brings me back to another question.I believe jodak is correct, in that the company commander must recommend Well then who recommended the three from C company It obviously wasnt Tom Custer he was dead.And if he recommended Sgt Hanley why didnt he do the same for McGuire. Who recommended the soldier from G company. It wasnt McIntosh he was also dead. Be Well Dan |
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Post by jodak on Mar 4, 2016 15:42:05 GMT -5
Hi Dan,
Slapper was another that was involved in the water detail but did not receive the MOH. The first step in being awarded the MOH is to be recommended for it, so the short answer to your question might be that some were recommended and some weren't. The reasons for that could be several, such as being in different companies and one company commander recommending someone in his company but another company commander not recommending someone in his for doing the same thing, or he wasn't aware of it, overlooked it, or just didn't want to be bothered with it. Then there is the possibility that, although two people were recommended, one was approved and one wasn't. I doubt that was the case, as I've never seen any indication of anyone that was recommended at the LBH not being approved, but it could have happened.
Just as a side note, there have undoubtedly been many, many people through the years that have been deserving of the MOH but didn't receive it for the same reasons enumerated above. In particular, someone would most likely be in position to perform an action deserving of the medal in only the most dangerous circumstances, and the simple fact is that there were often no survivors that witness these actions and to recommend the award. As another side note along those lines, I forget the exact circumstances but there was an instance in WW2 where a German submarine captain sent in a recommendation for a Victoria Cross for a British naval commander that he was engaged with. As I say, I don't remember the circumstances or how he actually went about submitting the recommendation, but I assume that he funneled it through some neutral country, and I think it was approved and awarded.
Edited to add the following pertaining to the recommendation submitted by a German for the Victoria Cross. Turns out it was for a pilot that attacked his sub and he was able to recommend it because the sub sank and he was captured. However, it points out the importance of witnesses.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_Trigg
jodak, Thank you for your fine response, because of it you put me in the right path to do some further research. It would appear that you are pretty much spot on with your statements. Here is a list of the companies and the MOH awarded. A (3) B(6) C(3) D(6) G(1)) H(4) none from companies E I F L It should be noted that all these company commanders were killed and would be unable to recommend anyone. However there were none awarded to companies K and M. Capt French commanded M and although I believe he was a fine Officer unfortunatly shortly after the battle he fell pray to the demon rum and the last thing on his mind was the MOH. K was commanded by Lt Godfrey who was also a fine Officer. Madden was in his company, and was the water carrier who was severley wounded so perhaps why he didnt reccomend him was either 1..You had to be a Captain or above to do so or 2.. he fell into your second opinion, that he didnt want to be bothered. Thank you again for your fine response Be Well Dan Dan,
If the recommendations came from the company commanders they would have gone up the line to first either Reno, during the period that he commanded, or Sturgis after his return. In either case you would think that they would have asked the other company commanders if they did not also have someone to recommend, but maybe not. Alternatively, the recommendations may have originated with Reno or Sturgis themselves. If Reno, he may have recommended only those that he witnessed himself or had been made aware of and just didn't known about the others. If Sturgis, he would have had to rely on what was told to him, and, again, just wasn't made aware of the others. However, again, you would think that either would double check to insure that no one had been overlooked. Another possibility is that the perceived contributions of those not awarded were just enough different that they were not considered worthy.
In any case, as you noted originally, the MOH award criteria at that time was far less than what it is today, and, in all probability, awarding it did not receive the same degree of care and oversight that it would today, so, when viewed in that light, it is easier to see how some may have slipped through the cracks. In fact, if today's standards had applied, it is possible that none would have been awarded, certainly not in the numbers that were, and some lower award, such as a bronze star, may have been more appropriate.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 4, 2016 17:59:43 GMT -5
[/p] Can you tell me what company the two who did not receive were in?
Regards, Tom
[/quote] Tom, Madden was K company McGuire was C company Which brings me back to another question.I believe jodak is correct, in that the company commander must recommend Well then who recommended the three from C company It obviously wasnt Tom Custer he was dead.And if he recommended Sgt Hanley why didnt he do the same for McGuire. Who recommended the soldier from G company. It wasnt McIntosh he was also dead. Be Well Dan[/quote][/p]
Dan, The ones you mentioned, when they turned up were assigned to a company. Also McIntosh reported to Reno, he could submit anyone under his command on his own. The majority were filtered through Benteen and forwarded to Reno, then Reno submitted.
Interestingly, Benteen asked French who he wanted to submit, French's reply was all or none, thus none from M company.
Regards, Tom
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Post by benteen on Mar 4, 2016 18:29:25 GMT -5
Tom/jodak
Thank you for your knowledgeable posts. Why some men were awarded the MOH and others were not, has always been a bit if a thorn to me about this battle. You gentlemen have cleared that up for me. Much appreciated.
Be Well
Dan
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Post by benteen on Mar 4, 2016 18:31:17 GMT -5
Cpl John Noonan (Co L) is buried at Custer Battlefield. Noonan was not at the LBH, being on detached duty at the Yellowstone Depot. He was married to a Mrs Nash, a post laundress. In
October 1878, Mrs Noonan died, and when the ladies of the post prepared the body for burial, they discovered that Mrs Noonan was a man. Noonan suffered so much scorn and ridicule that
he shot himself with a rifle on November 30, 1878.
Be Well
Dan
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Post by benteen on Mar 6, 2016 16:06:36 GMT -5
Isaiah Dorman (civilian interpreter, age unknown ) employed from may 15,1876 by the 7th Cavalry Quartermaster, was killed in the valley fight June 25 but was not listed among the dead in the Bismark Tribune Extra July 6, 1876. He is listed only as Isaiah on the battle monument.
Be Well
Dan
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Post by dave on Mar 6, 2016 21:34:11 GMT -5
Dan
Wonder why Dorman was ignored. Racial issue perhaps? Or an unofficial position in the 7th?
Regards
Dave
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Post by Beth on Mar 6, 2016 22:18:22 GMT -5
Are other Quartermaster employees killed in the battle listed in the paper?
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Gerry
Junior Member
Peter
Posts: 63
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Post by Gerry on Mar 7, 2016 11:13:38 GMT -5
Isaiah Dorman (civilian interpreter, age unknown ) employed from may 15,1876 by the 7th Cavalry Quartermaster, was killed in the valley fight June 25 but was not listed among the dead in the Bismark Tribune Extra July 6, 1876. He is listed only as Isaiah on the battle monument. Be Well Dan Within the text of the Extra July 6 is written: "The only citizens killed were Boston Custer, Mr. Reed, Charles Reynolds, Isiah, the interpreter from Ft Rice and Mark Kellogg, the latter the Tribune correspondent." Under the list of killed is shows: Listed as Civilian 5 : Boston Custer, Arthur Reed, Mark Kellogg, Chas. Reynolds, Frank C. Mann In the text Mann is not listed as the five citizens but listed as civilian list. Likewise Isiah is listed in the text as citizen but not listed as a civilian. So within the text of the Bismark Tribune Extra July 6, 1876 Isiah is mentioned. Gerry |
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Post by benteen on Mar 7, 2016 16:07:19 GMT -5
Isaiah Dorman (civilian interpreter, age unknown ) employed from may 15,1876 by the 7th Cavalry Quartermaster, was killed in the valley fight June 25 but was not listed among the dead in the Bismark Tribune Extra July 6, 1876. He is listed only as Isaiah on the battle monument. Be Well Dan Within the text of the Extra July 6 is written: "The only citizens killed were Boston Custer, Mr. Reed, Charles Reynolds, Isiah, the interpreter from Ft Rice and Mark Kellogg, the latter the Tribune correspondent." Under the list of killed is shows: Listed as Civilian 5 : Boston Custer, Arthur Reed, Mark Kellogg, Chas. Reynolds, Frank C. Mann In the text Mann is not listed as the five citizens but listed as civilian list. Likewise Isiah is listed in the text as citizen but not listed as a civilian. So within the text of the Bismark Tribune Extra July 6, 1876 Isiah is mentioned. Gerry Gerry, Point me in the right direction. I looked up the Bismark Tribune Extra July 6, 1876 and clicked on Battle of Little Big Horn Genealogy Trails and there is a complete list of killed and wounded. At the end of M company it lists the 5 civilians. Isaiah Dorman is not one of them. He is nowhere on the list. Be Well Dan |
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Gerry
Junior Member
Peter
Posts: 63
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Post by Gerry on Mar 7, 2016 21:36:46 GMT -5
Within the text of the Extra July 6 is written: "The only citizens killed were Boston Custer, Mr. Reed, Charles Reynolds, Isiah, the interpreter from Ft Rice and Mark Kellogg, the latter the Tribune correspondent." Under the list of killed is shows: Listed as Civilian 5 : Boston Custer, Arthur Reed, Mark Kellogg, Chas. Reynolds, Frank C. Mann In the text Mann is not listed as the five citizens but listed as civilian list. Likewise Isiah is listed in the text as citizen but not listed as a civilian. So within the text of the Bismark Tribune Extra July 6, 1876 Isiah is mentioned. Gerry Gerry, Point me in the right direction. I looked up the Bismark Tribune Extra July 6, 1876 and clicked on Battle of Little Big Horn Genealogy Trails and there is a complete list of killed and wounded. At the end of M company it lists the 5 civilians. Isaiah Dorman is not one of them. He is nowhere on the list. Be Well Dan That is correct in the list of five civilians killed Isiah is not listed. It is in the text of the Extra where Isiah is mentioned killed. Here is a link to the Bismarck Tribune Extra July 6 1876 third column, first paragraph. Gerry |
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Post by benteen on Mar 8, 2016 14:31:14 GMT -5
That is correct in the list of five civilians killed Isiah is not listed. It is in the text of the Extra where Isiah is mentioned killed. Here is a link to the Bismarck Tribune Extra July 6 1876 third column, first paragraph. Gerry Gerry, Thanks for the additional info. Perhaps I am looking at this with to critical an eye, but not only was the author correct in stating the Isaiah Dorman was not on the list of those killed, but even in the text they dont mention the name Isaiah Dorman, just Isaiah the interpreter. Someone reading that paper would not know a man named Isaiah Dorman fought and died just as hard as anyone else that day. They wouldnt even know he existed. Be Well Dan |
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Gerry
Junior Member
Peter
Posts: 63
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Post by Gerry on Mar 10, 2016 7:50:21 GMT -5
Gerry, Thanks for the additional info. Perhaps I am looking at this with to critical an eye, but not only was the author correct in stating the Isaiah Dorman was not on the list of those killed, but even in the text they dont mention the name Isaiah Dorman, just Isaiah the interpreter. Someone reading that paper would not know a man named Isaiah Dorman fought and died just as hard as anyone else that day. They wouldnt even know he existed. Be Well Dan It is too bad that Dorman was not on the list of killed provided to Lounsberry by Capt Smith. When one looks at the list: Total number of Commissioned Officers killed..14 Acting Asst Surg...............................1 Enlisted men.................................237 Civilians......................................5 Indian Scouts..................................3 Total..............................260 In the list of Civilians Isiah Dorman was not included and should have been with a total of 6, making the total 261. Within the text of the Extra, they do name Isiah and it is written "The total number killed is two hundred sixty one". Even the headlines says 261 not 260 as in the list. Then on the other hand, the scout Stab is listed as one of the scouts killed and he was not and died in 1882. Probably should have been Little Brave listed and not Stab. |
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Post by benteen on Mar 22, 2016 13:32:04 GMT -5
Lt. John J. Crittenden was serving with the 20th Infantry in October 1875 and exploded a cartridge with a knife, with the result that a small piece of the casing was lodged in his eye ,the eye was removed a month later. He was assigned to the 7th Cavalry in May 1876.
Be Well
Dan
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Post by dave on Mar 22, 2016 14:29:51 GMT -5
Dan
Do you think Crittenden might have been the inspiration for Capt. St. Jacques, the one eyed officer, in Rio Grande?
Regards
Dave
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