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Post by jodak on Feb 26, 2016 8:20:50 GMT -5
Interestingly, Col. Sturgis said about the same thing about Lt. McIntosh.
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Post by chardvc on Feb 26, 2016 14:47:10 GMT -5
Lt. Charles DeRudio (Co A) who was considered by Custer to be "The inferior of every first Lieutenant in this Regiment" had fought in Garibaldi's rebellion in Italy and was a self-confessed assassin. Be Well Dan I always took that quote to contain a wee bit of anti-Italian sentiment which I believe was prevalent at the time. |
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Post by benteen on Feb 26, 2016 15:06:29 GMT -5
Interestingly, Col. Sturgis said about the same thing about Lt. McIntosh. jodak, Here is an article from the book which may support your post about the opinion of Col Sturgis. lst Lt. Donald McIntosh (Co G) who was half-Indian and Canadian was not completely accepted by his fellow Officers in the 7th Cavalry. To add to his position of disfavor, Lt McIntosh had put 2nd Lt George Wallace (Co G) under arrest for insubordination over an incident which occurred on the troop train en route from the South to fort Abraham Lincoln (DT) Be Well Dan |
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Post by jodak on Feb 26, 2016 15:29:53 GMT -5
I found the exact quote and context of what Sturgis said about McIntosh. It was in his report to the 1870 Benzine Board, which was a review board charged with determining which officers should be retained and which ones eliminated during a period of army downsizing. Sturgis wrote of McIntosh, "Eminently inefficient through extreme indifference to his official duties, giving him the appearance of desiring to render the smallest possible service compatible with absolute security of his commission. If he were an enlisted man he would pass as a malingerer." However, it appears that McIntosh had endeared himself to Custer, who testified before the board on his behalf saying that McIntosh was a capable officer whose only offense was in antagonizing Col. Sturgis, so it appears that Custer was not adverse to defying his superiors even then. In any event, his testimony seems to have been instrumental in saving McIntosh, who was not dismissed.
As an interesting aside in regard to Lt. Wallace, upon first meeting Wallace McIntosh's wife, Molly, supposedly said that she was glad to finally meet someone uglier than her husband. |
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Post by dave on Feb 26, 2016 16:51:44 GMT -5
How did McIntosh keep his commission after such a poor evaluation?
Regards
Dave
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Post by fred on Feb 27, 2016 12:27:05 GMT -5
Dan,
I do not know that he wasn't accepted by the other officers of the regiment. Where did you read that?
Here is part of what I have put together on the man: McIntosh, as a very young man, had been working as a civilian clerk with the army’s QM Department since 1856. At the outbreak of the Civil War, he became a clerk for Colonel (then General) Daniel Rucker. With the help of some influential friends and family, he secured a commission as a second lieutenant on August 17, 1867, in the Seventh Cavalry (M). An injury kept him from the Winter Campaign of 1868. A courageous officer, extremely well-liked, but on Sturgis’ list of questionable officers. Managed to survive the Benzine Boards.
Deployed to the south with his regiment; also took part in the Yellowstone and Black Hills campaigns (1873 and 1874). Though there are discrepancies in how he was killed, it was certainly in the bottoms; possibly twenty yards from the Little Big Horn River, near Charlie Reynolds. McIntosh’s striker, PVT Rapp, was holding his horse, but Rapp took a bullet and died, the horses stampeding. PVT McCormick offered McIntosh his horse. He was probably shot from this horse. His “scalp was torn and cut off from the forehead clear back to the neck” [from an article in the Chicago Tribune, July 28, 1876, the packer, John Frett, one of the contributors]. In an article in “Winners of the West,” September, 1942, PVT George C. Berry (E/7I of Gibbon’s command) wrote: “A lieutenant named McIntosh was lying on his face directly in our line of march, and he had on a buckskin shirt with his name written or printed on it.” Ken Hammer, in The Battlefield Dispatch, Winter 2005, says he was killed at the edge of the timber. Horse’s name was “Puff.”
Part Indian, part Scottish-Canadian. Born in Canada, into an old trading family. Father was a factor in the Hudson’s Bay Company and was killed by Indians when McIntosh was fourteen. Same family as Sir James McIntosh. Mother, Charlotte, was a direct descendent of Red Jacket, a chief of the Six Nations.
Married Mary (Molly) Garrett (d. May 12, 1910) on October 30, 1866, in Baltimore. Molly’s younger sister, Katherine, married LT Gibson, H Company. Buried on the battlefield, then re-interred in Fort Leavenworth, then exhumed on October 28, 1909, and re-interred in Arlington National Cemetery.
Best wishes,
Fred.
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Post by benteen on Feb 27, 2016 18:06:01 GMT -5
Dan, I do not know that he wasn't accepted by the other officers of the regiment. Where did you read that? Best wishes, Fred. Capt Fred, From the book "1876 Facts about Custer and the Battle of the Little Big Horn" by Jerry L. Russell. Be Well Dan |
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 27, 2016 22:31:08 GMT -5
Dan,
Don't take Fred's comment as a slap, he carries around a book with all that info, memory in a book. After this comment he won't buy me a beer or give my book back. I was in trouble after the Depends crack, now this I am really in the doghouse. His wife still finds him a sexy senior citizen, he told me so!
Regards,
Tom
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Post by benteen on Feb 28, 2016 18:33:40 GMT -5
Dan, Don't take Fred's comment as a slap, he carries around a book with all that info, memory in a book. After this comment he won't buy me a beer or give my book back. I was in trouble after the Depends crack, now this I am really in the doghouse. His wife still finds him a sexy senior citizen, he told me so! Regards, Tom Tom,  Be Well Dan |
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Post by benteen on Feb 28, 2016 18:43:40 GMT -5
Sgt Richard P.Hanley (Co C ) without orders, pursued a runaway mule loaded with ammunition which had stampeded out of the defensive perimeter at the Reno-Benteen position. Sgt Hanley caught the mule and brought it, with its precious cargo back to the lines under heavy enemy fire. For this action he was awarded the Medal of Honor.
Be Well
Dan
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 29, 2016 6:58:03 GMT -5
Sgt Hanley was with the pack train. McGuire helped also on foot. He did not get a medal. The mule was never caught just herded back to the pack train location on Reno/Benteen. The mule was running back to the trail he came up.
I don't blame him
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by benteen on Mar 3, 2016 15:29:32 GMT -5
Sgt Hanley was with the pack train. McGuire helped also on foot. He did not get a medal. The mule was never caught just herded back to the pack train location on Reno/Benteen. The mule was running back to the trail he came up. I don't blame him Regards AZ Ranger I have a question. This is from Capt Freds book "Participants battle of LBH" Sgt Hanley was awarded the MOH for recapturing, under heavy enemy fire for twenty minutes and without orders, a stampeding pack mule named Barnum, loaded with ammo. Steve points out that McGuire also helped out. Certainly Sgt Hanley deserved the medal, but why not McGuire. I also pointed out that Pvt Madden who was a water carrier didnt get the medal when others did, and this poor guy was severley wounded. Now I understand that there were no other awards for bravery, all they had was the MOH. But, here is my question, How do 2 soldiers commit the same act, on the same day, against the same enemy, and one is awarded the MOH and the other gets to clean out the stable. Does anyone know why this seemingly hap-hazard way of awarding this medal. Be Well Dan |
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Post by jodak on Mar 3, 2016 16:19:30 GMT -5
Hi Dan,
Slapper was another that was involved in the water detail but did not receive the MOH. The first step in being awarded the MOH is to be recommended for it, so the short answer to your question might be that some were recommended and some weren't. The reasons for that could be several, such as being in different companies and one company commander recommending someone in his company but another company commander not recommending someone in his for doing the same thing, or he wasn't aware of it, overlooked it, or just didn't want to be bothered with it. Then there is the possibility that, although two people were recommended, one was approved and one wasn't. I doubt that was the case, as I've never seen any indication of anyone that was recommended at the LBH not being approved, but it could have happened.
Just as a side note, there have undoubtedly been many, many people through the years that have been deserving of the MOH but didn't receive it for the same reasons enumerated above. In particular, someone would most likely be in position to perform an action deserving of the medal in only the most dangerous circumstances, and the simple fact is that there were often no survivors that witness these actions and to recommend the award. As another side note along those lines, I forget the exact circumstances but there was an instance in WW2 where a German submarine captain sent in a recommendation for a Victoria Cross for a British naval commander that he was engaged with. As I say, I don't remember the circumstances or how he actually went about submitting the recommendation, but I assume that he funneled it through some neutral country, and I think it was approved and awarded.
Edited to add the following pertaining to the recommendation submitted by a German for the Victoria Cross. Turns out it was for a pilot that attacked his sub and he was able to recommend it because the sub sank and he was captured. However, it points out the importance of witnesses.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_Trigg
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 3, 2016 18:11:50 GMT -5
Sgt Hanley was with the pack train. McGuire helped also on foot. He did not get a medal. The mule was never caught just herded back to the pack train location on Reno/Benteen. The mule was running back to the trail he came up. I don't blame him Regards AZ Ranger I have a question. This is from Capt Freds book "Participants battle of LBH" Sgt Hanley was awarded the MOH for recapturing, under heavy enemy fire for twenty minutes and without orders, a stampeding pack mule named Barnum, loaded with ammo. Steve points out that McGuire also helped out. Certainly Sgt Hanley deserved the medal, but why not McGuire. I also pointed out that Pvt Madden who was a water carrier didnt get the medal when others did, and this poor guy was severley wounded. Now I understand that there were no other awards for bravery, all they had was the MOH. But, here is my question, How do 2 soldiers commit the same act, on the same day, against the same enemy, and one is awarded the MOH and the other gets to clean out the stable. Does anyone know why this seemingly hap-hazard way of awarding this medal. Be Well Dan Dan, Can you tell me what company the two who did not receive were in?
Regards, Tom
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Post by benteen on Mar 4, 2016 14:54:33 GMT -5
Hi Dan,
Slapper was another that was involved in the water detail but did not receive the MOH. The first step in being awarded the MOH is to be recommended for it, so the short answer to your question might be that some were recommended and some weren't. The reasons for that could be several, such as being in different companies and one company commander recommending someone in his company but another company commander not recommending someone in his for doing the same thing, or he wasn't aware of it, overlooked it, or just didn't want to be bothered with it. Then there is the possibility that, although two people were recommended, one was approved and one wasn't. I doubt that was the case, as I've never seen any indication of anyone that was recommended at the LBH not being approved, but it could have happened.
Just as a side note, there have undoubtedly been many, many people through the years that have been deserving of the MOH but didn't receive it for the same reasons enumerated above. In particular, someone would most likely be in position to perform an action deserving of the medal in only the most dangerous circumstances, and the simple fact is that there were often no survivors that witness these actions and to recommend the award. As another side note along those lines, I forget the exact circumstances but there was an instance in WW2 where a German submarine captain sent in a recommendation for a Victoria Cross for a British naval commander that he was engaged with. As I say, I don't remember the circumstances or how he actually went about submitting the recommendation, but I assume that he funneled it through some neutral country, and I think it was approved and awarded.
Edited to add the following pertaining to the recommendation submitted by a German for the Victoria Cross. Turns out it was for a pilot that attacked his sub and he was able to recommend it because the sub sank and he was captured. However, it points out the importance of witnesses.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_Trigg
jodak, Thank you for your fine response, because of it you put me in the right path to do some further research. It would appear that you are pretty much spot on with your statements. Here is a list of the companies and the MOH awarded. A (3) B(6) C(3) D(6) G(1)) H(4) none from companies E I F L It should be noted that all these company commanders were killed and would be unable to recommend anyone. However there were none awarded to companies K and M. Capt French commanded M and although I believe he was a fine Officer unfortunatly shortly after the battle he fell pray to the demon rum and the last thing on his mind was the MOH. K was commanded by Lt Godfrey who was also a fine Officer. Madden was in his company, and was the water carrier who was severley wounded so perhaps why he didnt reccomend him was either 1..You had to be a Captain or above to do so or 2.. he fell into your second opinion, that he didnt want to be bothered. Thank you again for your fine response Be Well Dan |
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