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Post by herosrest on Jan 16, 2016 2:14:53 GMT -6
DucemusThere are problems with this work which developed from Timber's accumulated research and also its revelations which were cherry picked. The Calhoun Hill end of the battle was not commonly discussed whilst the foray by cavalry to western fords was and is increasingly focused into modern understanding. Timber was confused by the terrain which he related and being bilingual had access to the established and developing broader history beside his Cheyenne Way. In parallel with his work on the battle, he wasn't there, it was related by participants including his family; there was an enduring effort to have the Cheyenne deaths marked. This was an immense political struggle to overcome attitudes towards Indians in general and particularly military outlook of mid 20th Century such as Luce. Rickey had a different outlook and respect. Timber had access to Kuhlman's work and SHOULD have heard the stories of the battle by the likes of Big Beaver and Wooden Leg which are not a part of his works but is the movement over GGR shown by Kuhlman and then given as cavalry movement to Rickey. Here is a map by Kuhlman, interesting because the movements towards western fords were not by cavalry but that changed with Timber and Rickey and the confusions introduced into memory and understanding by the 1926 re-enactments which had 7th Cavalry doing exactly the Cemetary ridge movements implicit to western fords theories. Which are.......... waffle with heroic syrup, and begging for the Washita attack parallels. It is just a part of later generation evolutons, Timber from Kuhlmam from Marquis with many thers thrown in, Graham, Brinninstool, Godfrey, Camp.... and on, and on. For the hell of it, the second item shows where Varnum indicated to W.A. Graham, that he saw the gray horse troop ride over Weir's Ridge. First hand to third and fourth. Instructive. History as it was and as it became and is ongoing. library.centerofthewest.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/MS165/id/243/rec/11
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 26, 2017 9:01:43 GMT -6
HR
Rickey states that JSIT had notes from 50 years prior which is around 1906. That is long before your Kuhlman argument. He would not need a translator and it was his own relatives. What better source do you think that Kuhlman had available?
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 26, 2017 9:05:48 GMT -6
HR
I can assure that Fred has lots of notes that predate his book. I saw at least one large loose leaf notebook that Fred was carrying around. My point is the JSIT note taking in 1906 documents when he put down on paper some of the information. That fifty years later Vaughn and Rickey talk to him does not change the date of the 1906 notes to 1956.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Jan 26, 2017 16:37:27 GMT -6
DucemusI do not disagree that he had notes but what I see is an evoluton and adaption of thinking and this is striking (for me) with the various maps which were produced over time. Good memory or not, he was chaotic in thinking and that is not the nature of oral tradition.He adapted what he understood and that is unusual accounting. It is politics and factualising his data.I wonder how practical his note taking was. I'd love to see yours from 1980 Like Kuhlman, his battle ended on Calhoun Hill wih a North South flow. Fox rejects this and therefore Rickey also.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 27, 2017 10:43:41 GMT -6
How about 1969? Here is a partial page of notes. Here is the notebook cover Clearly readable and if needed could be used to refresh my memory. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 27, 2017 10:55:26 GMT -6
HR
What I think you see is what you want to see. Look at the very first publication of the NPS for the Custer Battlefield. Published in 1950. It is consistent with JSIT.
What I don't accept is that Custer was an idiot and went on defense approximately the same time as Reno. I believe he moved north past LSH before it was LSH. Benteen's map shows it as line on cemetery ridge before it was cemetery ridge.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 27, 2017 12:23:01 GMT -6
Pequod,
In your case, as usual, very informational, not...keep baling
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 27, 2017 13:28:28 GMT -6
Peequod
In your desire to be an expert in grammar and spelling you lose sight of the big picture. It's communication! You may be handicapped by your own sense of correctness. I could clearly understand what Tubman 13 meant without the need you apparently have before you can understand something.
Did anyone else not understand and needed Robb's helping spellcheck?
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Jan 27, 2017 19:58:33 GMT -6
DucemusI do not believe that a participant's history was presented to Timber, born after the battle. He accumulated notes and constructed a battle theory based upon that knowledge. A popular past-time. His motive was markers for the Cheyenne fallen and that is quite a saga. If memory serves me, Utley was involved with the early publications. Would be interesting to hear his memories of Timber and the Cheyenne's battles. Maybe you'll run into him. Great give with the notes. That's consideration of the Sun Dance, I take it? One of the obscure details of the fight is the 14 men who fled across the river back up the valley, recrossed, and were killed according to Gall. So the finds are easily explained. Benteen may have been off by 16 rather than one. His missing 30 men is a myth. Completely uncorroborated although 30 is close to 28, not as close as 38. It is a pity that Vaughn only published his valley fight research. 7th Cavalry made the ride from western fords to LSH in 1926. It is on video and photograph from the 1926 re-enactment of the battle.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 28, 2017 5:46:22 GMT -6
tubman13, ...."keep baling"..? you mean bailing...? no matter, you seldom know what you mean.. as usual.. Robb As usual you swallow the bait, I dropped the I, which you never do you self absorbed snob.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 28, 2017 6:11:34 GMT -6
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 28, 2017 11:25:51 GMT -6
AZ Clueless ranger, Before you are able to "communicate", you must be able to compose a coherent sentence and paragraph, then we'll talk... Robb Apparently you can't communicate your wealth of knowledge from your 700 books and vast studies. Instead your posts consist of name calling which is more like a grade school student. With all your suggested abilities you have not contributed anything that would add up to more than one of HRs link posts. I am surprised that with your military background that you can't understand what posters are trying to communicate. That is your loss not ours. When Custer gave a charge command during the CW he did not need a whole sentence or paragraph. Is that you have trouble figuring out things? Or is it more likely a troll personality. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 28, 2017 13:09:29 GMT -6
tubman13, Nice try, tubman, but it's there nonetheless, for all to see... Robb You may deny the facts, but where is your proof, you walked into it, eyes wide shut. The more you play your childish games the more you expose yourself. Think "The Emperor's New Clothes" probably found in your vast library.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 29, 2017 6:46:11 GMT -6
Pequod, Unfortunately, you are as well. You could continue your sniping via PM, but then you would not wreck a thread, or be able to bring the attention to yourself, that you obviously crave.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 29, 2017 9:54:29 GMT -6
DucemusI do not believe that a participant's history was presented to Timber, born after the battle. He accumulated notes and constructed a battle theory based upon that knowledge. A popular past-time. His motive was markers for the Cheyenne fallen and that is quite a saga. If memory serves me, Utley was involved with the early publications. Would be interesting to hear his memories of Timber and the Cheyenne's battles. Maybe you'll run into him. Great give with the notes. That's consideration of the Sun Dance, I take it? One of the obscure details of the fight is the 14 men who fled across the river back up the valley, recrossed, and were killed according to Gall. So the finds are easily explained. Benteen may have been off by 16 rather than one. His missing 30 men is a myth. Completely uncorroborated although 30 is close to 28, not as close as 38. It is a pity that Vaughn only published his valley fight research. 7th Cavalry made the ride from western fords to LSH in 1926. It is on video and photograph from the 1926 re-enactment of the battle. HR I have seen many photos and they are all on the battlefield from the cemetery area to the park boundary. I have not seen any photos at the Ford Ds adjacent the Real Bird loop near the highway. If you have some I would like to see them. The huge crowds are standing on and around markers. There are no markers on the private land near Ford Ds. Regards Benteeneast
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