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Post by fred on Nov 5, 2015 15:14:31 GMT -6
So did he set out to write about 7 encounters or did find new facts that he felt should be published. The length of time spent in Reno fight valley area and the few artifacts found makes me suspect. I still can't get past his statement that finding nothing confirms a site location. Steve, Don't get me wrong: I have no real issue with Vaughn, per se. And apparently his work was and is fairly highly thought of. It is the "conclusions" I am critical of, whether those were drawn by him or others. Since I have not read anything he wrote, I cannot say. My criticisms are with the various interpretations I have read regarding Vaughn's work. I understand his book about the Crook business is the best thing out there, maybe even better than Neil Mangum's, which I have... but have not read yet. Nonetheless, Vaughn's work pales in comparison to Pitsch's. Unless you want to believe Pitsch salted hundreds of non-head-stamped cartridges in multiple locations, you need to take his work at face value. The fact Pitsch tried to pawn off non-period stuff as the real McCoy only makes him a crook, not a fraud. I realize it is difficult to accept a crook's word on where he picked up legitimate artifacts, but again, unless you want to believe he salted hundreds of cartridges.... And where would he have gotten that many, anyway? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Nov 5, 2015 15:32:57 GMT -6
This glade was within Reno's timber and was where the horses were held. Herendeen said it was between the village and the horses, which means the horses were kept on or near the glade's south end.
Colonel John Gibbon testified at the Reno Court of Inquiry some of the timber in Reno’s woods was of considerable size. The timber “was just above where the stream cuts into the second bench a considerable way,” leaving the bank almost as high as the ceiling in the inquiry room. There was no timber around the bend. Inside the timber there was a wide-open space, maybe fifty yards wide, with evidence of an old Indian camp. “[T]here was another open glade looking toward the prairie to the left and rear of the position.” The bluffs were back from the stream opposite Reno’s timber position. Gibbon did not think those bluffs could have commanded much of the woods because they were too long a rifle shot away. On the right bank, “there was very little of what you would call timber. There was brush-wood and small trees, very thick and tangled in some places, with a good deal of fallen and dead timber among it.”
Varnum described the timber as being very heavy along the edge of the second bench; dense underbrush, little paths into it made by animals, then the glade with grass, small trees along the river’s banks. He thought it might have been one hundred yards from the right of the skirmish line to the river.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Nov 5, 2015 15:36:47 GMT -6
The idea of having ammo in the saddle bags is a joke. Exactly... [encore] Again, I agree. And with enough men, an easy flank to turn. My sincerest thanks. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by tubman13 on Nov 5, 2015 15:49:29 GMT -6
Dear Abbey,
Where was the glade? What was the actual location of the timber? How far did the skirmish line extend? Could the Crow Scouts, with Custer, see Reno's skirmish line collapsing from where they were lobbing bullets into the village, and was that message conveyed to GAC either directly or through Boyer?
All of the above is interesting and relevant, but the real questions are, to me:
Could Reno have held out anywhere in that valley against the numbers he faced? Did Custer or "The King's Own" indicate direct support? Or where the support would come from? Did GAC share his "plan" with anyone who did not die with him? Where did "The King's Own" tell Benteen to come to, be quick to, or was that up for interpretation?
I enjoy, a mystery as much as the next person, but not when lives are on the line.
Regards,
Lonely, lost, surrounded, scared, and clueless as to the plan, in the valley!
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Post by fred on Nov 5, 2015 16:33:09 GMT -6
Could Reno have held out anywhere in that valley against the numbers he faced? No. Not unless you think odds of 5.89 to 1 or 7.63 to 1, depending on what you do with the horse-holders, are easy to overcome... anywhere!He indicated "support." Unless qualified otherwise, all support is "direct." Anything else is equivocation. Reno was told he would be "supported." Enough said. It doesn't look that way, does it? So the answer is, No. Not specified. I send you an order to "come." Where would you go? To Terry? God help your ass if I didn't see you after sending you that note; or if I had spotted you playing footsie with Reno in the valley. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by magpie on Nov 5, 2015 17:09:37 GMT -6
Fred selects the Pitsch site. Bill doesn't like Jason Pitsch who claims to have found hundreds period correct cases in the timber. Here is a link to the discussion on the other board. thelbha.proboards.com/thread/2441/renos-timber-location-pitsch-vaughnsMyself I don't think Vaughn discovered enough artifacts to determine anything. He never found any evidence to verify the location of the first skirmish line where the majority of the firing would have occurred. Regards AZ Ranger The Clair arial doesn't match the Scott plot of yellow dots if I keep reading the 13 pages will that get cleared up or should I skip it. I would like to see Pitsch's own Map.
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Post by fred on Nov 5, 2015 17:30:14 GMT -6
I would like to see Pitsch's own Map. Magpie, What you need to get is the aerial map done by Mike Bonafide. It is a glossy, blank-and-white set of aerials with color-coded overlays showing various sites and the artifacts found in various locations. It is the best thing out there, especially for a "map reader." It used to be sold in the LBH bookstore, but no more. It was produced by Bonafide in 1999, by something called Atalissa, Inc., out of Loveland, CO. The title on the front is, Little Bighorn Battlefield Map... Archaeological Finds and Historical Locations. It sold for $7.99 and my advice to you-- if you can find any-- is to buy at least two of them if possible. I have a clean one-- which I won't part with-- and a working, kinda torn one (from overuse), which I won't part with either. When I spotted them in the bookstore, I bought one, went through it and the next day bought three more. Then I sent away for two more. I wound up giving them all away. The map shows Indians and government artifact finds, and the timber location is as clear as a bell. I used it to verify or debunk my own theories and ideas. Maybe the most important map ever done of the entire shootin' match. And by the way, if you can find it, I would use it in conjunction with the McElfresh map. The McElfresh map has a couple of errors, but no big deal. It is surprisingly accurate. The McElfresh map is so good and so attractive I had it framed and it is hanging on my wall. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by magpie on Nov 5, 2015 19:18:34 GMT -6
Thanks I'll look for it.
The glade I believe is the critical thing to locate if it's possible as I think many statements use it as a point of reference. The timber is just too big. One thing though plowing of the skirmish line would preserve a lot of material. Bullets especially would drop down like gold in a slouce box. I think a carefull shallow trench excavation would likely hit pay dirt at a foot.
Herosrest's Reno letter at Christies in it he says he was within 200 yards of the Village but if there was a tepee or two in the glade I guess it's not such a significant statement. I did like Reno concludes Custer rode into an ambush at the end of the letter.
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Post by dave on Nov 5, 2015 19:37:09 GMT -6
Magpie If you find a source for the map recommended by Fred please share. Regards Dave
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Post by edavids on Nov 5, 2015 20:34:18 GMT -6
Just in passing The idea of having ammo in the saddle bags is a joke. I think we make too much of skirmish lines .They were no more than a light covering screen with the horses close by for a speedy advance or retreat. Durnfords covering action at the Isandalwana is a prime example of how to fight light mounted carbines. The dismounted skirmish line was never designed as a heavy duty engaqement system . And regards to you Fred .Be of good cheer Strategy is so good that my son will not return it to me. Well put on the Islandwana reference. Also a classic example of what happens when ammo runs low and a formation (not sure if I can call Durnford's men a "battalion") is unsupported per the orders of Henry Pulleine. Cost was the Brit right flank collapsing with the result game, set, match for over 1300 good men. Sound familiar with Reno? Reno was able to achieve a better result in saving most of his men. Durnford was also damned by Chelmsford if I recall so no, life is not fair. Gotta love quartermasters who stick to the letter of warped rules.
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Post by wild on Nov 6, 2015 1:16:50 GMT -6
Hi Dave Durnford was also damned by Chelmsford if I recall so no, life is not fair. Well Chelmsford's orders to Durnfield were found on the battlefield .These made a liar out of Chelmsford and he got a cold reception on his return to London. Cheers
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 6, 2015 2:15:31 GMT -6
Magpie If you find a source for the map recommended by Fred please share. Regards Dave Both of those maps were available last year at that the visitor center bookstore. I bought another one of each. My working ones are showing signs of wear. Regards Steve
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Post by edavids on Nov 6, 2015 8:17:43 GMT -6
Hi Dave Durnford was also damned by Chelmsford if I recall so no, life is not fair. Well Chelmsford's orders to Durnfield were found on the battlefield .These made a liar out of Chelmsford and he got a cold reception on his return to London. Cheers Until he kissed up to Queen Victoria anyway.
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Post by wild on Nov 6, 2015 9:08:06 GMT -6
The title on the front is, Little Bighorn Battlefield Map... Archaeological Finds and Historical Locations. I have a copy of said map....actually more an aerial photo with contours overlayed ,but that ia an advantage because it is easy to pick up the changes in the course of the river . And there is no mistaking Reno's position ; extending South approx 220 yrds with flanks in the air.Frontage fits his troop strenght and he would have lasted maybe 10 minutes longer than in the open.Well I'v just checked Gray and he allows him 5 mins longer in the Timber than in the open. But the position is terminal. Cheers
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 6, 2015 9:35:24 GMT -6
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