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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 6, 2015 9:35:58 GMT -6
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Post by wild on Nov 6, 2015 9:38:23 GMT -6
tHAT'S THE ONE
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Post by wild on Nov 6, 2015 9:42:14 GMT -6
Yes Dave apparently he was not getting the usual reception due a returning victorious general until Viccy demanded it. Cheers
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phil
New Member
Posts: 25
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Post by phil on Nov 6, 2015 10:47:27 GMT -6
HI Dave and Richard,
Durnford did not receive written instructions to take over command at Isandlwana, Crealock lied in that respect. He inherited command due to seniority, a fact conceded by Pulliene when the two men conversed. It appears that there was a contradiction between Durfords intentions which were to seek out and attack the Zulus and Pullienes orders to defend the camp. In that respect Pulliene was correct in deferring to his orders when Durnford requested two companies of 24th, Durnford had seniority and could have insisted, he chose not to.
Ammo resupply is often cited as a root cause in the unfolding defeat. I think it's over exaggerated. Once in the Donga, Durnfords right flank was in the process of been turned by the Zulu left horn. Even worse, though Durnford was probably oblivious to it, the Zulu right horn had completed traversing the Tahelane spur before proceeding down the Manzimyama valley and were in the process of forming up in readiness to attack the British rear. To meet this threat Pulliene had nothing, save for a few camp orderlies, bandsmen, stretcher bearers and pioneers to defend 1700 metres of ground between the Donga and Isandlwana.
Durnfords role in the defeat is hotly debated and there's no doubting his personal courage. Yet when faced with the mounting threat, Durnford a Brevet Colonel, the man with seniority, found himself commanding 75 men.
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Post by dave on Nov 6, 2015 13:21:05 GMT -6
Thank you AZ and Wild for info on the map. I am attempting to contact the bookstore at the Visitors Center. Regards Dave
AZ You are correct that any could be arrested. The ones I remember are the individuals who demanded their constitutional right to be arrested. The ones who would not shut up, stop arguing and insinuating that my mother was a fallen woman.
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Post by edavids on Nov 6, 2015 13:46:13 GMT -6
HI Dave and Richard, Durnford did not receive written instructions to take over command at Isandlwana, Crealock lied in that respect. He inherited command due to seniority, a fact conceded by Pulliene when the two men conversed. It appears that there was a contradiction between Durfords intentions which were to seek out and attack the Zulus and Pullienes orders to defend the camp. In that respect Pulliene was correct in deferring to his orders when Durnford requested two companies of 24th, Durnford had seniority and could have insisted, he chose not to. Ammo resupply is often cited as a root cause in the unfolding defeat. I think it's over exaggerated. Once in the Donga, Durnfords right flank was in the process of been turned by the Zulu left horn. Even worse, though Durnford was probably oblivious to it, the Zulu right horn had completed traversing the Tahelane spur before proceeding down the Manzimyama valley and were in the process of forming up in readiness to attack the British rear. To meet this threat Pulliene had nothing, save for a few camp orderlies, bandsmen, stretcher bearers and pioneers to defend 1700 metres of ground between the Donga and Isandlwana. Durnfords role in the defeat is hotly debated and there's no doubting his personal courage. Yet when faced with the mounting threat, Durnford a Brevet Colonel, the man with seniority, found himself commanding 75 men. Thank you for the clarification Phil.
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Post by fred on Nov 6, 2015 15:43:57 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Nov 6, 2015 16:53:47 GMT -6
To answer is a fair amount of work. I would have to go back to the RCOI and read about each man's statement about his skirmish line mark he made on Maguires map but frankly they are all within a couple hundred yards of each other and the length varies more than the placement. The skirmish line also advanced 100-200 yards. Reno was pretty enamoured with the 5 yard spacing so at most you'd have 75 men at 5 yards apart or 375 yards but some witnesses saying 100-200 yards. Fred wants to add depth and is tactically correct in a modern sense but most of those manuals look pretty linear but with a reserve at your flank which will shorten your line as well as Reno pulling a squad to recon the glade ( another reason I believe it was in the advance). Now as to Pitsch all I have are the yellow dots of Pitsch that Scott put on Figure 26 of his NPS publication free on line. Scott say's all of Pitch is lost to history because his artifacts were sold to privateers. So I am unsure of where Fred has the glade. Herosrest found a photo marked up by W O Taylor in the Denver library owned by Chris Kortlander and it shows Otter Creek or Reno's ditch forming an apex with the river and Taylor saying the glade ( or rather were the horses were initially held) is at the apex. On all Maguire maps show the Southerly border of the glade is South of the skirmish line. Fred might throw us map so we can see if I am apples and apples or oranges. I think he's jumping to conclusions there. I am also open minded about Taylors photo and aware that no one was happy with Maguire yet it's the only point of reference we have except casings. DucemusThere is further direct evidence left by Freeman. www.friendslittlebighorn.com/images/reviews/freemanmap.jpg ANECDOTUSIUM Of course, we know from his very precise report, that Reno was then retreating from the valley. (see note)Which whatever time of the place is applied to calculation for Custer's column, that same time applies to Reno's watch and sense of time. This was a synchronised military unit engaged in supporting maneuvre during battle. Obviously their watches kept the same time of what ever place they were set to. In that respect, Stanton's actual reported calculations for the summer weeks of the campaign, are invaluable. He reported his weekly calculations of the time of the place in his annual report for the Chief of Engineers. Not a lot of people know that. A few morte do, now. note - John S. Gray did precisely the same effort with his masterpiece and it was rubbish then, as it is now. Now, something (what could it possibly be... a fox, maybe?) was reported as '8', by Freeman on his sketch. What could it possibly have been........... ? Ho hum.
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Post by Beth on Nov 6, 2015 17:19:13 GMT -6
You can also get the McElfresh map on Amazon. If you have Prime, it will save you the price of shipping.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 6, 2015 17:37:34 GMT -6
You can also get the McElfresh map on Amazon. If you have Prime, it will save you the price of shipping. Ducemus I've had some very unfortunate experiences with Prime and its map reading in delivery. They are training 2nd Lt's.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 6, 2015 17:51:53 GMT -6
DucemusThe curious interesting observation is the straight line sequence which indicates quite seriousy, that something or one, didn't know what they were doing. I guess we'll have to blame that arifact collector P.W.Norris who removed bucket loads of cartridges from LSH and also, Joe Blummer! Who was Vaughan's informant and guide. Scott Pitsch analysis. We are looking for a line of retreat indicating three companies abreast, charging to the east from a timbered location, and straight into a river. Reno halted to avoid one ditch and charged headlong into another, full of flowing water! So, there ya go - us.geoview.info/custer_battlefield,35562914p
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Post by herosrest on Nov 6, 2015 18:46:11 GMT -6
Ducemusmagpie - www.sandybarnardauthor.com/shop/sandy/shovels.htmlIn the Little Big Horn Valley rancher Jason Pitsch had been conducting his own archeological studies on his family's property in and around the Reno skirmish site and the timber site. I interviewed him and photographed many of his artifacts. That led me to decide to expand Digging by adding a chapter on Pitsch's work. S. Barnard lbha.proboards.com/thread/1355/soldier-jason-pitch?page=1This was one of the best topical debates which ever was. thelbha.proboards.com/thread/454/renos-timber-area Maps galore. Now - It has been stated that Reno expected direct support, also that Reno expected that direct support from the rear. This is an unfortunate presentation of wishful thinking. Reno very quickly realised that Custer did, exactly what he did - moving east of the river in a coordinted strike. Further, Reno never once remarked or commented on Benteen's order to reinforce him in the valley. His very silence speaks volumes of truths. Truths which he could not reveal.
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Post by edavids on Nov 6, 2015 19:12:21 GMT -6
Ducemusmagpie - www.sandybarnardauthor.com/shop/sandy/shovels.htmlIn the Little Big Horn Valley rancher Jason Pitsch had been conducting his own archeological studies on his family's property in and around the Reno skirmish site and the timber site. I interviewed him and photographed many of his artifacts. That led me to decide to expand Digging by adding a chapter on Pitsch's work. S. Barnard lbha.proboards.com/thread/1355/soldier-jason-pitch?page=1This was one of the best topical debates which ever was. thelbha.proboards.com/thread/454/renos-timber-area Maps galore. Now - It has been stated that Reno expected direct support, also that Reno expected that direct support from the rear. This is an unfortunate presentation of wishful thinking. Reno very quickly realised that Custer did, exactly what he did - moving east of the river in a coordinted strike. Further, Reno never once remarked or commented on Benteen's order to reinforce him in the valley. His very silence speaks volumes of truths. Truths which he could not reveal. Where in Cook'e's note does it state "reinforce Reno in the valley." What messenger was sent from Custer to Benteen with that wording whether written or verbally? Please provide proof, not rumor or hearsay. Thank you.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 6, 2015 20:01:39 GMT -6
DucemusBenteen did not know where Custer was and was told to be quick. He saw his regiment fighting in the valley. Edgerley and Weir went to Ford A to join the fight in the valley but Reno was retreating. It suits people to confuse this matter and is an immense flaw projected upon the world by Kuhlman, that Benteen was to ride onto the bluffs, waving and blowing kisses across the water towards Reno. Hiya Marcus......... How 're they hanging! It's an absolute travesty of common sense and fact to follow the thinking of Kuhlman and others on this matter. Benteen and the soldiers with the packtrain were sent to reinforce Reno, who simply would not say that because he pulled out of the battle, without permission to do it.
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Post by edavids on Nov 6, 2015 22:54:48 GMT -6
DucemusBenteen did not know where Custer was and was told to be quick. He saw his regiment fighting in the valley. Edgerley and Weir went to Ford A to join the fight in the valley but Reno was retreating. It suits people to confuse this matter and is an immense flaw projected upon the world by Kuhlman, that Benteen was to ride onto the bluffs, waving and blowing kisses across the water towards Reno. Hiya Marcus......... How 're they hanging! It's an absolute travesty of common sense and fact to follow the thinking of Kuhlman and others on this matter. Benteen and the soldiers with the packtrain were sent to reinforce Reno, who simply would not say that because he pulled out of the battle, without permission to do it. Which does not address a direct question. Where in Cooke's note does it state for Benteen to go to Reno or name the additional messenger who did deliver such a message along with multiple corroborating witnesses.
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