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Post by magpie on Oct 28, 2015 8:45:51 GMT -6
Many members were discussing skirmishing tactics in Army manuals of the day recently. Upton's manual was then in use and requires officers to instill a feeling of invincibility to their troops not just esprit de corps.
A lot of my own feelings of Custer as a maniacal leader has to do with his frequent boasts that his 7th Calvary can wip anything and all the Indians in North America. At the same time, out the other side of his mouth, in his discussion with the scouts he aknowledges he and the 7th might not survive the coming battle. Upton's manuals, the Army manuals of the day requires officers to give their troops the feeling that they are invincible. So Custer is following the manual and it's no evidence of being a maniac.
I wonder how much these required boasts have to do with the general feeling the man is off balanced and some kind of maniac?
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Post by Beth on Oct 28, 2015 12:12:46 GMT -6
I think that a bit of bravado must be necessary on the eve of a battle. After all how many men would welling to go into battle if the Commander said. "you know boys, this is may difficult battle and I plan to have no plan going into it other than ride in on my reputation as being the best dern Indian fighter there is."
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Post by dave on Oct 28, 2015 12:25:50 GMT -6
I believe it was Custer's boasting about his cavalry divisions's record during the War that put Benteen off about Custer. The bit of never losing a flag, always capturing the enemy's flag and cannons etc was the root cause of Benteen's dislike of Custer.
Regards
Dave
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Post by magpie on Oct 28, 2015 13:34:37 GMT -6
I think that a bit of bravado must be necessary on the eve of a battle. After all how many men would welling to go into battle if the Commander said. "you know boys, this is may difficult battle and I plan to have no plan going into it other than ride in on my reputation as being the best dern Indian fighter there is." I think that was Upton's conclusion to pump up the men, make them more likely to take chances, chances that would benifit the common good (mission success and survival). The positive attitude like George Bush Junior. Cheers |
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Post by magpie on Oct 28, 2015 13:38:18 GMT -6
I believe it was Custer's boasting about his cavalry divisions's record during the War that put Benteen off about Custer. The bit of never losing a flag, always capturing the enemy's flag and cannons etc was the root cause of Benteen's dislike of Custer. Regards Dave I could see that and I think Benteen was a bit of a contrarian> He saw himself as a much better soldier, saved the day in a way, but forgot to dig in and lost more men than he needed to. He may have inspired but his foolish chances may have met his early end. He like Custer relied on luck. |
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Post by Beth on Oct 28, 2015 15:04:05 GMT -6
I believe it was Custer's boasting about his cavalry divisions's record during the War that put Benteen off about Custer. The bit of never losing a flag, always capturing the enemy's flag and cannons etc was the root cause of Benteen's dislike of Custer. Regards Dave I suspect Benteen thought Custer was all hat and no cattle. |
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Post by benteen on Oct 28, 2015 15:22:30 GMT -6
I believe it was Custer's boasting about his cavalry divisions's record during the War that put Benteen off about Custer. The bit of never losing a flag, always capturing the enemy's flag and cannons etc was the root cause of Benteen's dislike of Custer. Regards Dave Dave, Yes Dave I agree, and I think we can add 2 more reasons for Benteens dislike of Custer, 1...His abandoning of Major Eliot at the Washita 2...His refusal to allow Benteen to be with his dying child, but Custer himself abandoning his command to go see Libbie because he had an itch under his belt. No Dave if I was Benteen I dont think I would be exchanging Christmas cards with Custer either. Be Well Dan |
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Post by dave on Oct 28, 2015 15:37:19 GMT -6
Dan
You are quite right about Benteen's hatred and its sources. The loss of a child is so abhorrent and then to be denied to be there with the dying infant is beyond my understanding. Benteen as pointed out by magpie was not innocent of making mistakes on Reno's position by failing to have his men entrench on the night of June 25.
These men were hardened to death from the War and quick to anger and Benteen seems to never have forgiven many if at all for past slights.
Regards
Dave
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Post by montrose on Oct 28, 2015 16:31:52 GMT -6
The regiment had 2 shovels. These were moved company to company and never got to Benteens side of the perimeter. All that was possible was slit trenches, a shallow scrape 3 inches deep, where you pile the dirt on the enemy side.
The damage Benteen's men took in daylight did not come from their front. It came from behind. To protect themselves from this threat requires true foxholes, or even a true trench 4 feet deep. That was impossible with he resources and time available. Benteen and his company had the most dangerous position on the perimeter, and they paid a price in blood to hold it.
The claim that they failed to properly entrench is just a Custer fanboy smear, to denigrate Benteen and embellish Custer. How come no one blames the companies on the other side of the perimeter, who failed to suppress the enemies in their sector that so badly damaged Benteen's men?
I do not see what Benteen could have done differently. Maybe pulled rank and demanded the 2 shovels, but that just screws some other company. Problem is he needed 20 shovels, and they did not exist.
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Post by dave on Oct 28, 2015 17:24:14 GMT -6
Montrose
Thank you for your post an I stand corrected. I must be more careful in the future to make statements with proper research.
Regards
Dave
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Post by magpie on Oct 28, 2015 18:08:51 GMT -6
What's funny is Gibbon's (as burial detail) borrowed shovels from the Sioux as they had many that they abandoned in camp. I don't know if they dry gulched a miner and were going to break them up to make spear points or use them for digging wild turnips or to trim up Reno's ditch. They should have had the Indians train the Troops.
I am the guilty party of not analyzing Benteen's situation better or just being ignorant.
The object of my post is how much of the modern anti-Custer feelings come from this by the book bravado. I didn't know about Benteen's leave for his baby. Custer certainly was a premadona.
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Post by wild on Oct 29, 2015 4:33:47 GMT -6
Benteen's casualties on Reno Hill may have just been due to luck . The Indians facing him may have been better shots or the best Indian firing positions may have been opposite his position .
It is not the shortage of shovels that is the issue but Benteen's failure to deploy for defense in the hour immediately following his halt at Reno hill . McDougal said when he arrived at the position that he thought the men were having a picnic .
Benteen lost an hour and that hour was paid for with the lives of his men.
The whole tenor of the Benteen discussion is based on excuses for his inactivity and lack of leadership.
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 29, 2015 6:06:36 GMT -6
Wild,
His inactivity continued right through his charges to his front, that broke the NA's attempts to mass and charge the command. The majority of Benteen's casualties came from his rear not his front. Firing from the higher ground across the defensive position. Benteen, was part of the answer, not part of the question in this engagement.
I will take dropin's 1930's socialist point of view on this board. On these two days Benteen performed above and beyond his job description. He commanded not only his three companies, but he helped bring order to a very chaotic situation. Much like a baseball manager, getting the most out of his players to halt a slump.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by magpie on Oct 29, 2015 8:58:49 GMT -6
Wild, His inactivity continued right through his charges to his front, that broke the NA's attempts to mass and charge the command. The majority of Benteen's casualties came from his rear not his front. Firing from the higher ground across the defensive position. Benteen, was part of the answer, not part of the question in this engagement. I will take dropin's 1930's socialist point of view on this board. On these two days Benteen performed above and beyond his job description. He commanded not only his three companies, but he helped bring order to a very chaotic situation. Much like a baseball manager, getting the most out of his players to halt a slump. Regards, Tom I think it's clear without Benteen they would have all been slaughtered.I believe he called for kettles to be filled with water ( what the hell they were doing in arid country with just one canteen each is the Army's fault). He's the only one that personally did the job of a Sergeant and hand placed each man to advantage. Recognized the danger of the Indians massing close in and charged to drive them out just, in his judgement, when the point of no return in the balance was there. He is the only one that recognized a covering deployment was necessary for Weirs advance and as Weir retreated in such panic Weir knowingly left a conscious wounded man to die, Benteen's deployment partially covered that retreat. Without Benteen we'd be looking at Indian pictographs of Weir getting clubbed from behind right now. In this he took many risks and if he had been killed I don't think anyone else would have come forward. I had in my ignorance faulted him for not digging in. The topo's at 20 feet between a line or interval. The strange lines some of the scholar/archeologists have drawn that don't resemble the arch or horse shoe described at RIOC also make it impossible to tell much from afar. I am still wondering how Custer's bravado by the manual has effected current perception of him? |
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Post by wild on Oct 29, 2015 9:21:06 GMT -6
Hi Tom
On these two days Benteen performed above and beyond his job description.
A reference you give to a slacker you want rid of.
But seriously Benteen failed to give leadership.Instead of taking charge,instead of getting the officers together and taking decisions he allowed the situation to deteriate to a point where he lost a company .
You speak of order? does this include the headlong flight from Weir Point in which a man was lost ?
He had an hour to survey Reno Hill and entrench .The man even failed to contact the packs and bring up the ammo.
It is a spurious arqument to justify Benteen's performance pre Weir Point with that of post Weir Point
The majority of Benteen's casualties came from his rear not his front. Firing from the higher ground across the defensive position
There is no ground within rifle range of a higher elevation than Reno hill.
Cheers
Richard
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