|
Post by wild on Oct 29, 2015 9:37:08 GMT -6
Magpie I think it's clear without Benteen they would have all been slaughtered An opinion. It is a fact that Benteen without orders headed off Northwards. If the situation was of the slaughter variety then look no further than Benteen for triggering it. And note that it was Reno who ordered the command to take post on Reno hill not Benteen Cheers
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Oct 29, 2015 14:15:40 GMT -6
Magpie I think it's clear without Benteen they would have all been slaughteredAn opinion. It is a fact that Benteen without orders headed off Northwards. If the situation was of the slaughter variety then look no further than Benteen for triggering it. And note that it was Reno who ordered the command to take post on Reno hill not Benteen Cheers I think Benteen lacked situational awareness and should have asked questions of Custer as to what he was supposed to accomplish with his movement left. There are certain people and I think Benteen might be one who would purposefully screw up an incomplete order just to "prove" his "superior" wrong instead of rounding out the rough edges and make it work. There will never be a way to figure out what Reno would have done without Benteen's initiative. Would he have stepped up and done the same. We really know little of what Reno was doing in the time Benteen bought him other than watching tepees be taken down and put back up and checking on the Lt. corpse. We just don't know if that recoinoiter was critical to anything.
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Oct 29, 2015 15:28:00 GMT -6
It is a fact that Benteen without orders headed off Northwards. If the situation was of the slaughter variety then look no further than Benteen for triggering it. And note that it was Reno who ordered the command to take post on Reno hill not Benteen Cheers Hi Richard, You and I have been having a friendly debate about Benteen for years. Your position has always been that Benteen had orders to go to Custer and he disobeyed them by assisting Reno and should have been Court-Martialed. My position has been that if a situation has changed since those orders were given (In this case a drastic change) that a US Army Officer has the ability to assess and evaluate and come to the best decision. Now it appears that when Benteen does attempt to go to Custer you blame him for not staying with Reno. My friend this appears to be heads you win tails I lose. Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Oct 29, 2015 15:32:26 GMT -6
[quote source="/post/114047/thread" timestamp="1446133028" author="@ I think Benteen lacked situational awareness and should have asked questions of Custer as to what he was supposed to accomplish with his movement left. s critical to anything. Magpie, Benteen did question Custer about his movement left. He felt the regiment should stay together. Custers response was "You have your orders" Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Oct 29, 2015 16:31:49 GMT -6
Wild, A couple of points the man left near Weir Point as left by another officer who promised, to come back for him. That officer regretted it for the remainder of his life.
I can sling a .22 rim fire nearly a mile, from a carbine length barrel, if I hit someone, I can damage them.
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by wild on Oct 29, 2015 16:55:54 GMT -6
Hi Dan hope you are well
My friend this appears to be heads you win tails I lose. I know Dan it might appear that way but....... Benteen threw in his lot with Reno. He is now operating under Reno's orders ok? But no ,he takes it upon himself to depart from his post without orders. Two central actions are triggered by Benteen, one in contravention of his CO's orders the other without orders . The man was a loose cannon.
As regards the change of situation issue ; the change of situation did not inpact on Benteen's mission . Battlefields are an ever changing environment . It is the CO who calls the shots and Custer saw a change of situation and ordered Benteen forward . Custer's call.
Glad of the opportunity to clarify. Best Regards Richard
|
|
|
Post by wild on Oct 29, 2015 17:04:13 GMT -6
Hi Tom
I can sling a .22 rim fire nearly a mile I know fellas who can piss that far after a few guinness but they don't hic the target.
Why is it necessary to justify Benteen's actions with exceptions? If Benteen's actions were military straight by the numbers he would have no questions to answer. Cheers Richard
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Oct 29, 2015 19:33:55 GMT -6
Hi Dan hope you are well My friend this appears to be heads you win tails I lose.I know Dan it might appear that way but....... Benteen threw in his lot with Reno. He is now operating under Reno's orders ok? But no ,he takes it upon himself to depart from his post without orders. Two central actions are triggered by Benteen, one in contravention of his CO's orders the other without orders . The man was a loose cannon. As regards the change of situation issue ; the change of situation did not inpact on Benteen's mission . Battlefields are an ever changing environment . It is the CO who calls the shots and Custer saw a change of situation and ordered Benteen forward . Custer's call. Glad of the opportunity to clarify. Best Regards Richard Benteen's Orders where to bring up the packs not to abandon the pack train to be slaugtered by the Indians. It should be obvious that you could not move from the Reno Corral to LSH without abandoning the wounded and the pack train. Reno knew it but the other dim bulbs then and now didn't get their head around that one. Weir went forward on his own hook with Edgerly following just as the pack train completed their arrival to the corral. I don't see the problem with Benteen and Reno following behind Weir. If they hadn't Weir's troop probabley would have never made it back. The reality was what they saw was the clean up action by the Indians after the battle had ended. No one escaped the clean up action every body was shot many times ( "we saw the Indians shooting at soldiers on the ground" ). I would suspect such a clean up action to take at least 20 minutes. So in conclusion we have an order to bring up the packs. Not @#$%ing ammunition {Custer didn't even touch the 22,000 round he had}: to bring up the packs. When we got the packs up we discovered Custer was already dead. End of story.
|
|
|
Post by montrose on Oct 29, 2015 20:22:25 GMT -6
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I just want to say how happy I am with the conversations on the board. I see a lot of brain cells at work.
I know many of the long term folks here. My time in Army Special Forces included working with Morse Codes. Operators develop a unique fist, or signature. This means the base station know who is sending. I was told once they missed a message because they were laughing hysterically since they knew I was sending vice my commo sgt. I wasn't amused, since I was sending since he walked into a cactus that exactly hit him in the groin area. Sounds funny, but it was not.
My point is I know the fist of the long timers here. I love poster wild, for constantly challenging me. I love both Dans for insight and persistence.
Magpie is new to me, learning his fist. But his posts over the last week show an active and lively intellect. I am constantly surprised by his observations.
We do not have to agree with one another. It would be very boring if we did so. But I think we are behaving like professionals, which is a healthy change of pace for folks who have been on the boards 3 years or more. We respond to theories with facts, assumptions, analysis, without personal attacks.
Unless you went to Georgetown, where the gloves come off.
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Oct 30, 2015 9:06:49 GMT -6
[quote source="/post/114047/thread" timestamp="1446133028" author="@ I think Benteen lacked situational awareness and should have asked questions of Custer as to what he was supposed to accomplish with his movement left. s critical to anything. Magpie, Benteen did question Custer about his movement left. He felt the regiment should stay together. Custers response was "You have your orders" Be Well Dan Hi Dan: I remember that version. I think it demonstrates a polarization and not a true quiry. It goes in the direction of "I will prove the @#$%^&erd wrong" verses "so if I go left what is it you want me to accomplish cause I don't understand?". Obviously Custer reflected on the orders and realized they were unclear and sent two edits that were unclear. I will repeat a personal story from my experience. One day my Cousin decided to send me alone to a neighboring ranch {I had never been to} two valleys over. I searched for 1/2 a day. Just at what point do you call a a ravine, gulch, coulee, draw a valley. I got just as angry as Benteen and returned on my own trail and yelled at my Cousin. Two years later he sent me out again to another Ranch but he had reflected on the communication problem and he now defined two valley's over as "TWO SKYLINES OVER" that did the trick skylines are obvious, big and easily identified. So you have your Indian scout telling your interpreter, telling Custer who is then telling Benteen about Big Sky country. What's at stake is what is a valley?
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Oct 30, 2015 13:32:46 GMT -6
Ladies and Gentlemen, I just want to say how happy I am with the conversations on the board. I see a lot of brain cells at work. I know many of the long term folks here. My time in Army Special Forces included working with Morse Codes. Operators develop a unique fist, or signature. This means the base station know who is sending. I was told once they missed a message because they were laughing hysterically since they knew I was sending vice my commo sgt. I wasn't amused, since I was sending since he walked into a cactus that exactly hit him in the groin area. Sounds funny, but it was not. My point is I know the fist of the long timers here. I love poster wild, for constantly challenging me. I love both Dans for insight and persistence. Magpie is new to me, learning his fist. But his posts over the last week show an active and lively intellect. I am constantly surprised by his observations. We do not have to agree with one another. It would be very boring if we did so. But I think we are behaving like professionals, which is a healthy change of pace for folks who have been on the boards 3 years or more. We respond to theories with facts, assumptions, analysis, without personal attacks. Unless you went to Georgetown, where the gloves come off. Thank you very much for the complement. The level of scholarship here is outstanding and there is so much detail I don't think I could ever master it all or even come close to Herosrest in that regard. I come with a basic ability to see the whole of things (forest) though I can't spell etc. etc.. I must credit Herosrest for shoveling massive amounts of his research documents my way. Fred rescued me from the other board as Tunkasilla was battering me with his myopia (only trees that one).
|
|
|
Post by fred on Oct 30, 2015 14:35:15 GMT -6
Unless you went to Georgetown, where the gloves come off. Let me say I agree with my dear friend Will. What a pleasure it has been to read this board over these last several weeks. I miss some of the older people, those who go way, way back, but I do not think these boards have ever been as good as they are now. For my two cents, this is the best it has ever been... and as quite possibly the oldest poster around here, I thank every one of you. What a pleasure you all have made it. My sincerest and very best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by dave on Oct 30, 2015 14:58:02 GMT -6
magpie Like you Fred helped me out when dealing with the poster you mentioned. I enjoy reading the posts on this board and learning many important and some tidbits of knowledge. Montrose's experiences in SF along with the grunt experiences of Fred, benteeneast and benteen and other combat vets certainly enables one to see the Little Big Horn in a much different light. The material we view on this board has enabled me to change my perceptions and beliefs almost daily while developing friendships with folks all over the world. I have thoroughly enjoyed my time interacting with others on this board. Regards Dave
|
|
|
Post by edavids on Oct 31, 2015 9:23:40 GMT -6
Ditto on the excellence of posts and posters. Apologies that my participation has been minimal. Grandpas with new grandsons have to start spoiling right away and in volume.
Fred, I have already let Santa (the red headed better half of me) that I want your book for Christmas.
No I am not a Rush Limbaugh fan.
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2015 9:03:25 GMT -6
Ducemus(Condensation of data posts) Hi Tom I can sling a .22 rim fire nearly a mileI know fellas who can piss that far after a few guinness but they don't hic the target. In amongst ravines and ridges and engaging at distances existing at LBH across the Reno Hill and Custer fights, how would you expectd aimed overs and short rounds to behave. For example, a target at say 400-500 yards (head and sholders) located just below an intervening ridge line. How will rounds behave as aimed shots are adjusted onto a target. DucemusHere is Cooke's earlier treatise in neat and tidy form cookes cavalry tactics.pdf (988.62 KB) Added - www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?12921-Emory-Upton-s-Post-War-1866-or-1867-Drill-ManualDucemus
|
|