|
Ford D
Oct 10, 2015 11:58:59 GMT -6
Post by magpie on Oct 10, 2015 11:58:59 GMT -6
The original recipee. Conceptually I have the following problems with: 1.) after disintegration I doubt men would flee into the enemies advance Men run to safety: to perceived safety. They run to "holes," to cover, to timber, to other men. Sometimes they have no choice: they are forced into a direction by advancing, increasing, overwhelming numbers. That is why 28 bodies were found in Deep Ravine: a place crawling with Indians: there were no options and the ravine was so deep you couldn't see what was in there until you reached its rim/edge. Then it was too late and you were forced into it. That is also why there was heavy bunching in the Keogh Sector. And the perceived lack of bunching is one of the rerasons-- in my opinion-- Richard Fox believes there was no "last stand"-- as we know it-- on Last Stand Hill. The bodies were scattered: all but a few. Again... the use of Indian firearms is way overstated. There were 14 cases where pathology could determine some sort of perimortem damage. 78.6% of those were determined to have perimortem blunt force trauma damage, i. e., direct cause of death. Only 1 (7%) was attributed directly to a bullet wound; only 1 (7%) by an arrow; and only 1 (7%) by hatchet. 35.7% were identified as dying solely by blunt force trauma; 4 (28.6%) by a combination of blunt force trauma and bullet; and 2 (14.3%) by blunt force trauma, for sure, but possibly wounded and incapacitated, prior, by bullet. So the scarcity of bullets-- pre- and post-metal detecting eras-- is not surprising. Best wishes, Fred. Thank's for condensing all that info. on Post Mortum's. Is this info in a pier reviewed Journal? Rather than unload a barrage of pot shots, I'd like to read. Where can I find? I had counted fire arms deaths on some of the Indian drawings. Flesh wounds and gut shot is not going to show. You'd need to review medical reports for the civil war and spanish american war's to be able to estimate percent of wounds not involving bone. Coup de Gras to head sure leaves a lasting impression. I am reffering to distribution of bullets. Distribution does not support an attack from Deep Ravine.
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 10, 2015 12:40:19 GMT -6
Post by fred on Oct 10, 2015 12:40:19 GMT -6
... if shock is all you want why not hit from the South like you were supposed to do? You don't have air cover, no Jolly Green. Tom, you will have to ask him. And again, you are approaching this from the viewpoint of a 21st-century manual. The LBH was far from a textbook op; it was a seat-of-the-pants battle. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 10, 2015 12:43:33 GMT -6
Post by fred on Oct 10, 2015 12:43:33 GMT -6
Is this info in a pier reviewed Journal? Rather than unload a barrage of pot shots, I'd like to read. Where can I find? Tom, The three Fox-Scott archaeology books. Great reading. There was no attack " from" Deep Ravine. Indians used it as a highway to Battle Ridge... and troops were driven into it. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 10, 2015 14:46:44 GMT -6
Post by dan25 on Oct 10, 2015 14:46:44 GMT -6
There maybe a small flaw in basing some of the battle on the empty cartridges that was found.
SOUVENIR HUNTER'S. I have read several articles about people as early as the 1880's picking up souvenir's, and it has continued for over a hundred years.
The one person claims to know of three people that have collected nearly 60 empty cartridge's and other items from LBH within a four year period. (he mentioned no names nor what years)
But if you really think about this, how many cartridge's and other items have been picked up, that could have shown where soldier's / Indian's had fought. There is a lot of evidence missing. He also mentioned of some that have used metal detector's.
I personally know people that have used metal detector's on CW sites and I guess luckily were never caught.
Regards dan25
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 10, 2015 15:57:49 GMT -6
Post by magpie on Oct 10, 2015 15:57:49 GMT -6
Hi Dan that is a much discussed observation so they went to bullets but still a fair number of cartridges were recovered. Other evidence( the small sample pathology/osteology and the Indian pictographs) suggests the Indians used various war clubs in a majority of deaths. The archaeologist Fox and Co. and 3 books now. The first I bought some 20 years ago for 32.95 but found it tedious and difficult and I am still unconvinced on the movement to this Ford D. There apparently is some new evidence rumored coming out with the find of some dead soldiers outside the battle ground. For now there is just very little hard evidence and if you try to pin a proponent down they dodge.
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 10, 2015 16:02:15 GMT -6
Post by wild on Oct 10, 2015 16:02:15 GMT -6
Hi Fred
I do not see the correlation here. Quite frankly, I believe with what he saw at Ford D, had Keogh showed up-- his battalion in tact-- without Benteen, telling Custer they had been cut off, Custer would have gone across Ford D without Benteen and attacked anyway. I am convinced completely, with the resistance Custer had seen along his various forays, he felt he could handle anything he came across. It was only when he reached Cemetery Ridge he saw what he was really up against. Cemetery Ridge was the "Great Awakening." On a strictly tactical level there is a correlation. If all tactical logic is suspended such as Benteen's importance and what Custer saw from the bluffs then the discussion poses questions with which I'm not equipted to deal. Best Wishes Richard
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 10, 2015 20:56:54 GMT -6
Post by magpie on Oct 10, 2015 20:56:54 GMT -6
Is this info in a pier reviewed Journal? Rather than unload a barrage of pot shots, I'd like to read. Where can I find? Tom, The three Fox-Scott archaeology books. Great reading. There was no attack " from" Deep Ravine. Indians used it as a highway to Battle Ridge... and troops were driven into it. Best wishes, Fred. You have approximately 1/2 the number of bullets and yet you have two engagements on the ground leading into Deep. It's mind boggling that If Crazy Horse and Co. is running up Deep Ravine and exiting through the gate like walls just below battle/Custer ridge that the Army would not fire at the Indians there. It's equally mind boggling that you think men would retreat into one of the Main Indian passageways. Sincerely : Tom
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 10, 2015 21:23:22 GMT -6
Post by Beth on Oct 10, 2015 21:23:22 GMT -6
Tom, The three Fox-Scott archaeology books. Great reading. There was no attack " from" Deep Ravine. Indians used it as a highway to Battle Ridge... and troops were driven into it. Best wishes, Fred. You have approximately 1/2 the number of bullets and yet you have two engagements on the ground leading into Deep. It's mind boggling that If Crazy Horse and Co. is running up Deep Ravine and exiting through the gate like walls just below battle/Custer ridge that the Army would not fire at the Indians there. It's equally mind boggling that you think men would retreat into one of the Main Indian passageways. Sincerely : Tom Perhaps that was the only way they could go due, there was an opening and a number of people ran for it only caring it was away from what was happening were they were at. People running for their lives only reason they weill die if they stay here so perhaps I could survive there. It doesn't have to make sense. Desperation doesn't always make sense. Think if it perhaps like people who jump out of burning building or off a sinking ship.
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Oct 11, 2015 6:55:26 GMT -6
Ducemus
We are always dealing with incomplete data and for example, in regards archeology, sampling and the collection which took place before serious study. An example. Scatter a hundred carbine rounds into an obscure corner of your local park and return to see how many you can retrieve after 20 years. Then hand the plot of findings to a historian and tell that a great battle was fought where you found what you found.
Two Eagles mentioned that some troops moved down Calhoun Coulee towards Deep Ravine. Stanley Vestal's White Bull drawing (sketch map) shows this and also movement off Custer's Hill which joined that movement. Two Moons told of fifty or so men moving off Custer's Hill. It seems from other accounts that they returned to the hill. Two Moons rode a route over GGR to swing up onto and over Battle Ridge. Cheyennes and Sioux at the same time poured over the west flank of Deep Coule in pursuit of mounted troops who were retreating ahead of them. Finley Hill was over-run. White Bull had ridden over from Weir's Peak and hooked around the northern side of Calhoun Hill to join Crazy Horse. There are some unfortunate flaws in the understanding of how this battle flowed and how later Cheyenne history has been promoted into events. It was a short and very violent affair and Mitch Bouyer's skull ended up where it did. Mind you, he was called 'Two Bodies' and 'Man in Calf-skin Vest'and the hundred horse bounty offered was for his 'head'.
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 11, 2015 7:04:07 GMT -6
Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 11, 2015 7:04:07 GMT -6
Tom, The three Fox-Scott archaeology books. Great reading. There was no attack " from" Deep Ravine. Indians used it as a highway to Battle Ridge... and troops were driven into it. Best wishes, Fred. You have approximately 1/2 the number of bullets and yet you have two engagements on the ground leading into Deep. It's mind boggling that If Crazy Horse and Co. is running up Deep Ravine and exiting through the gate like walls just below battle/Custer ridge that the Army would not fire at the Indians there. It's equally mind boggling that you think men would retreat into one of the Main Indian passageways. Sincerely : Tom Mind boggling would assume that we have all the facts, testimonies, and accounts that explain every detail. It would assume that we knew the level desperation in troops that caused the anywhere but here movement . There is also a probability that we don't know what they saw and reacted to. I don't know but it could be as simple as the horses were standing in the river and all the warriors were where they were at. Did they think Reno was fighting in the village? Markers don't explain the activities that led up to the trooper's or Indian's dead body in a particular location. At best we come with something consistent with in regards to putting it together. I really think it is mind boggling to put this together to begin with but not some movement by troopers toward the village. Just because you (we) don't know why is not the same as knowing why and wondering what the hell? What were the verbal commands if any? Regards AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 12, 2015 7:05:52 GMT -6
Post by magpie on Oct 12, 2015 7:05:52 GMT -6
DucemusWe are always dealing with incomplete data and for example, in regards archeology, sampling and the collection which took place before serious study. An example. Scatter a hundred carbine rounds into an obscure corner of your local park and return to see how many you can retrieve after 20 years. Then hand the plot of findings to a historian and tell that a great battle was fought where you found what you found. Two Eagles mentioned that some troops moved down Calhoun Coulee towards Deep Ravine. Stanley Vestal's White Bull drawing (sketch map) shows this and also movement off Custer's Hill which joined that movement. Two Moons told of fifty or so men moving off Custer's Hill. It seems from other accounts that they returned to the hill. Two Moons rode a route over GGR to swing up onto and over Battle Ridge. Cheyennes and Sioux at the same time poured over the west flank of Deep Coule in pursuit of mounted troops who were retreating ahead of them. Finley Hill was over-run. White Bull had ridden over from Weir's Peak and hooked around the northern side of Calhoun Hill to join Crazy Horse. There are some unfortunate flaws in the understanding of how this battle flowed and how later Cheyenne history has been promoted into events. It was a short and very violent affair and Mitch Bouyer's skull ended up where it did. Mind you, he was called 'Two Bodies' and 'Man in Calf-skin Vest'and the hundred horse bounty offered was for his 'head'. I don't think what I am saying is at odds with the accounts you've listed. Though I wish I had it and all the maps at my finger tips. What I am saying is starting from the side wall of the deep of Deep Ravine heading North-East along the Ridge under the "South Skirmish Line" to LSH Turning South going along Custer Ridge to Calhoun Hill and then turning North-West and following the prominent but unnamed ridge from the hill back to Deep Ravine side wall you have a basin at the headwaters of Deep Ravine with a Ridge line THAT WOULD TRAP BULLETS FIRED FROM WITHIN IT. Ridge tops cover over 75% the perimeter of that basin. You have approximately 17 of 215 Indian bullets, most of the 17 very near the cluster of markers just inside ( south east) of the Southern 1/2 of the "South Skirmish Line". You claim two very significant actions/engagements occurred in that basin:1.) Crazy Horse charged up and through and 2.) Deep Ravine men ( are they supposed to be all E company men?? and not random survivors of the first battle??) in disorderly retreat seeking cover, water and flowing like water as broken men do but right into the narrow path of at least 1/3 of the Indian warriors (??). YOU DON"T HAVE THE BULLETS FOR THE INTENSITY OF ACTION CLAIMED. So you say no bullets were fired, its a DMZ, only war clubs. SILENT INNOCENT KIA WITNESSES LIE SCATTERED ABOUT FULL OF BULLETS (70 DEAD HORSES). SO THAT"S THE PROBLEM I SEE.
|
|
|
Post by brenda56 on Oct 15, 2015 14:08:02 GMT -6
I too have difficulties accepting that Keogh was waiting for Benteen. He may have been but I tend to believe that the linkup was secondary, nice to have but not essential. I suspect that Custer intended to achieve his objective with five coys., eight would be nice but not essential. I just cannot believe that a collection of military officers, still with the upper hand in their minds, would jeopardise forward movement based on a possibility no matter how probable. I therefore do not believe that the order to Keogh was to wait. The eta of Benteen Calhoun location, or thereabouts, is interesting when looking at Custer's return to Cemetery but could be a bit of a red herring.
So the question is what was Keogh's task ? I see his primary role as defending the rear as forward reconnaissance takes place. After and all the ford B manoeuvre was still fresh in their minds and there is a good chance they considered a possible threat from the village. That threat would more than likely follow the previously taken route to Calhoun. Someone may have mentioned killing two birds with one stone, no puns there, in as much that Benteen could be on location.
So Custer heads off to ford D. That makes sense as that is the direction of those who are fleeing. All textbook stuff for Custer so far. At this stage Custer had to find a crossing point. I do not believe that he would have headed towards the river with two companies. A reconnaissance was all that was needed. It is likely that he left the majority of his unit on Cemetery or thereabouts as he, assuming Custer, headed towards the river. Indeed this could be the waiting unit which always confuses the picture by indicating Custer waited 20 minutes or so. From cemetery the looksee for a crossing point was no more than a ten minute job and if Custer was intent on winning the day, if Custer felt no threat he would have found a crossing. I have no doubt he did find that crossing.
Now when Custer had that crossing point the momentum had to be maintained. I do not believe that at this point Custer was intending to wait for Benteen as he looked across the lbh river knowing success was within arms reach. In fact working backwards this indicates the order to Keogh did not include Benteen.
Nevertheless I do believe a linkup was on the agenda. It wasn't Benteen with Keogh but Keogh with the "waiting party" a la Cemetery location or thereabouts.
(There are various reasons as to why Keogh failed to follow through on orders, his orders. These include and not limited to the fact they were overwhelmed in virtually no time at all, Keogh was killed or incapacitated early on (along with his orders or expectation), failure to inform key individuals on the common goal and Fred's discovery of the gap or indeed a combination of all four or more).
To me this is all about forward motion, security looking backwards and linkup. There was no time for waiting. To calculate waiting periods, dead time, when the smell of blood was in the air seems ludicrous. As Custer was at ford D he would have demanded that Keogh was on his way to a Cemetery linkup at least. At ford D Custer had his oh bugger moment whilst the oh sht moment was waiting for him at the Cemetery.
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 15, 2015 17:18:26 GMT -6
Post by magpie on Oct 15, 2015 17:18:26 GMT -6
I could see Custer with maybe 4 others reconoitering Ford D. Custer was a very active observer and all over the place. The description of Crazy Horses attack (running infront and along the line of dismounted soldiers so his followers could mark the position of the soldiers by their muzzle flashes is really possible to the North of the South skirmish and East of Custer Ridge and the bullet evidence is very supportive out side the triangle. An attacking force from out side the triangle would push refugees down deep ravine. No one listens but the crow scouts told Reno's men on the Hill Keogh was wounded. There is a description of a wound to his knee.
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 18, 2015 7:58:38 GMT -6
Post by dan25 on Oct 18, 2015 7:58:38 GMT -6
I have been trying to understand the terrain between Ford B and Ford D by the river. Was it at all possible to go from B directly to D along the river, rather than to go east using the coulee's?
dan25
|
|
|
Ford D
Oct 19, 2015 9:53:53 GMT -6
Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 19, 2015 9:53:53 GMT -6
Here is a photo that was taken last year when we floating the river downstream from MTF.
|
|