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Ford D
Jan 5, 2017 15:46:49 GMT -6
Post by wild on Jan 5, 2017 15:46:49 GMT -6
Hi Bruce
If Custer was moving to attack, why leave 3 companies behind? If the threat level is low, why not 1 company and a trusted officer to make the link with Benteen? It is my contention that he did not leave any units behind. There was but one offensive option open to him and that was to cross the LBH North of the village and attack South.
And what was his plan of attack if he is still in the recce phase? As above . Recce was sacrificed to aggression and suprise.
If the force was great, would an additional Benteen and 3 companies have made a difference? My guess is that the command was not up to a prolonged Rosebud type battle . They had one chance , one shot in the locker and that was for a full regimental charge through the village from South to North doing as much damage as possible and not stopping until they reached Terry. Hurrah Richard
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Ford D
Jan 5, 2017 15:51:26 GMT -6
Post by Colt45 on Jan 5, 2017 15:51:26 GMT -6
Richard, I agree with your three points to Bruce.
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Ford D
Jan 5, 2017 15:59:20 GMT -6
Post by wild on Jan 5, 2017 15:59:20 GMT -6
Colt Tom Hi guys. A retreat from ford D by all 5 companies is very interesting .It is something I have not considered. I must give it some thought. So just a quick reply. If an action had occured at Ford D Custer would not have been easly forced back. He want to do battle with the Indians . I think only defeat at the Ford a serious defeat would have seen a retreat and that retreat would have been Reno like [not in good order] The markers do not suggest an action such as this. But good point ,food for thought , needs more work. Hurrah Richard
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Ford D
Jan 6, 2017 4:32:57 GMT -6
Post by wild on Jan 6, 2017 4:32:57 GMT -6
Hi Guys On mature refelection it is my opinion that there was neither action nor a retreat from Ford D.
WHY ?
Because once committed, a cavalry unit stays committed until there is a result one way or the other. If Custer was defeated at Ford D and driven back the companies [survivors] would be intermingled . On Battle ridge [in general]we find companies fighting and dieing as a company, sames goes for the HQ element.
At least Custer died advancing.
I can go into more detail if required.
Hurrah Richard
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Ford D
Jan 6, 2017 9:01:11 GMT -6
Post by wild on Jan 6, 2017 9:01:11 GMT -6
These are the issues relating to an attack at Ford D
Custer has no available reserves. Custer is unsupported ie no cover element to porvide covering fire or to provide a fall back position. The target area is huge . There is no formed body of Indians into which he can deliver his charge. He is outnumbered at least 5 to 1. He would be punching air.
If the noncoms are panicked and without escort he can do damage but he will eventually be confronted.
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Ford D
Jan 6, 2017 9:01:16 GMT -6
Post by Colt45 on Jan 6, 2017 9:01:16 GMT -6
Richard, That makes no sense at all. It ignores the evidence and testimony of troopers who, after the battle, found Custer's tracks that led to the river, then turned back away from the river, and tracks of unshod ponies going after the shod tracks. It also means Custer had the notion of engaging decisively with the notion of "if we are not victorious, let no one come back alive", and that his men felt the same way. Cavalry does not commit and stay committed until they win or die. It may turn out that way, but that is not the intent. Many units have been committed to battle, but withdrawn if necessary. Conditions determine whether a unit remains in a battle or not.
Evidence of companies fighting and dying as a company supports the ford D theory of action and withdrawal, and this is backed up by the archeological evidence found by Fox and most recently the evidence found on BRE.
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Ford D
Jan 6, 2017 9:35:57 GMT -6
Post by wild on Jan 6, 2017 9:35:57 GMT -6
Hi Colt All surviving cavalry horses were either ridden by the Indians [some parade like]or driven into the village. All Cavalry weapons were captured and used by the Indians. All military clothing and personal effects were plundered by the Indians.
We might have a different interpretation of commit . A cavalry regiment has but one shot in its locker ; the charge. If it charges home it must succeed or face rout.See above. A defeat at Ford D would have resulted in a Reno like rout , companies all mixed up.Markers do not support this scenario. Cheers Richard
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Ford D
Jan 6, 2017 9:52:17 GMT -6
Post by tubman13 on Jan 6, 2017 9:52:17 GMT -6
Hi Guys On mature refelection it is my opinion that there was neither action nor a retreat from Ford D. WHY ? Because once committed, a cavalry unit stays committed until there is a result one way or the other.If Custer was defeated at Ford D and driven back the companies [survivors] would be intermingled . On Battle ridge [in general]we find companies fighting and dieing as a company, sames goes for the HQ element. At least Custer died advancing. I can go into more detail if required. Hurrah Richard Colt, Richard,
I think we have a "Cavalry Mindset" thing going on here, highlighted in blue! Seen that elsewhere by another closed mind. Great fun!
Regards, Tom
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Post by wild on Jan 6, 2017 13:50:51 GMT -6
Hi Tom If there is a "mind set" at play here it is an infantry mind set.
How can I explain this? You could say a cavalry regiment is like your 82nd once they jump there is no going back. Once a cavalry regiment charge closes with the enemy there is no halting it. [Reno is another story]
Cheers Richard
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 6, 2017 15:01:32 GMT -6
Richard,
The LBH was not Stalingrad, they were not reporting to Hitler, retreat was possible. Withdrawal is an option open to any commander. Colt was an officer in what was once called Armored Cavalry, withdrawal/retreat is in every officers tool box. Leading a regiment, in an attack, does not require a follow up poem that starts with "Into the Valley of Death rode." Regarding the Airborne, who I worked with, during training drops. You can't put the jumpers back in the plane, but they are not required to die due to not withdrawing from an untenable situation.
Regards, Tom
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Ford D
Jan 6, 2017 17:51:18 GMT -6
Post by wild on Jan 6, 2017 17:51:18 GMT -6
Tom you fail to understand the nature of the cavalry charge and the resultant melee close quarter hand to hand fighting and scattering of the companies. To try to withdraw under such circumstances would bring on a rout. The purpose of reserves of which Custer had none was to support and exploit the success of the first line. Without reserves Custer had no chance at Ford D. A mounted attack at Ford D would have seen the decisive action fought out here. The Markers indicate no such action or retreat from Ford D . They indicate a column heading north with Custer and Hq element leading the way with Yate's battalion in close attendance followed by Keogh and his battalion. Best Wishes Richard
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Ford D
Jan 6, 2017 18:33:45 GMT -6
Post by Colt45 on Jan 6, 2017 18:33:45 GMT -6
The markers don't indicate anything except where someone fell. They can just as easily indicate movement south.
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Ford D
Jan 6, 2017 19:22:46 GMT -6
Post by wild on Jan 6, 2017 19:22:46 GMT -6
Hi Colt
The markers don't indicate anything except where someone fell. They can just as easily indicate movement south. As the movement was North and as it conformed to the normal configuration of being led by the CO and HQ that scenario has a stronger claim to credibility than a suggestion that the Column had done a 180 turn [for no reason] and now had the the HQ and senior officers to the rear. You must give a reason why this occured .I require no reason. Cheers Richard
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Ford D
Jan 7, 2017 5:48:45 GMT -6
Post by tubman13 on Jan 7, 2017 5:48:45 GMT -6
Richard, No we don't we can be just as inflexible. Thank goodness Intrepid and others some 70 years ago weren't. They adjusted to situations and adapted.
Remember Market Garden? Those gentlemen jumped out planes and attempted to pull out and finally did. Another situation where better intel would have saved lives.
Regards, Tom
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Ford D
Jan 7, 2017 10:02:23 GMT -6
Post by wild on Jan 7, 2017 10:02:23 GMT -6
So you tell us Tom how an understrenght cavalry unit with no support or reserves having charged the enemy and is engaged at close quarters can break off the action and withdraw in good order? Feel free to use Reno as an example. Cheers Richard
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