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Post by magpie on Sept 19, 2015 7:31:05 GMT -6
Broadly (with it's limitations) we have Tea totaler Custer assigning Companies and it seems likely he might put all the drinkers together under his alcoholic Major especially for the central and direct attack (the boose cruise to the gates of death). My assessment of the performance of Reno's Officer corps is not good. The charge to break the encirclement and subsequent retreat was disorderly, there was a complete failure to organize cover for the river crossing, organize a defense for the ridge, regroup etc. All these things should have been done without Reno. Of course Reno should have secured water and organized his position on the bluffs but all in all despite his alcoholism he recognized he was riding into a trap and reacted aggressivly putting out a skirmish line within a few hundred yards of the Indians entrenchment (natural "works"). He recognized his flank was being turned and swung his skirmish line into the timber. He then saw his position in the glade of timber could not be maintained. Benteen, Girard, and Herendeen all believed it was a class A defensive position. Unfortunately we don't have Terry's or Sheridan's thoughts on that. We do have the Indians thoughts on it and they were about to assault the position but Reno withdrew before they could ( See Graham (53) page 96 3rd or 4th paragraph under Eastman's Sioux account ). It seems the general consensus is Indians will not attack a position unless they are very sure of success with low casualties. Thus I'm concluding that they like Reno felt the position could not be held or the Indians would chose bottle it up instead of assault it.. Again Reno acts very aggressively and breaks the encirclement and retreats. The Indians chasing him 10 minutes South and then by some accounts fearful they were being drawn into ambush or that Custer's approach needed their attentions drew off and lost 10 more minutes on the return. Much as Benteen concluded there was no difference to the Custer situation as 20 minutes to be slaughtered or 20 minutes to be chased is all the diversion Reno could offer Custer.
Does anyone know the personnel well enough to know if these were the hardest drinking Companies (A., G., and M)?
One other related interesting aspect is Reno's claim that in his charge/retreat that the lead company took the greatest casualties. It's hard to know who was killed when. So Reno lead, A company followed, then M and then G. . For the duration of the campaign A Company had 9 killed, M Company had 12 killed and the tail G Company lost 14. Of M companies loses I believe one was wounded on the Skirmish line and abandoned by Dr. who found a chest wound and Taylor said Tanner was killed later on the bluffs. Leaving us with A having lost 9, then M loosing 10 and G at the tail loosing 14. Perhaps some one can revise the list with other KIA's not occuring in the retreat. It's interesting because the numbers do not really support either contention: 1.) that of Reno (that advance took the greatest loss) or 2.) the rest of us who thought the tail took all the losses. In fact it is more like the Lyman Sioux account that they retreated along Sioux lines ( continous flank fire). This supports Reno's contention that the Indians were in the Timber ( realize Reno's advance and retreat followed along the tree line of the river and not as Maguire shows). Perhaps someone can further tweak the retreat casualties for/with me.
Of course according to Taylor: Reno was passing the flask to Lt. Hodgson his adjutant who later lost his life and you have Girard or Herendeen passing the flask to Charlie Reynolds who made himself a fine target prior to his death.
I am doing some editing of this so I'm not trying to be tricky but just improve the post.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 19, 2015 8:01:28 GMT -6
Reno had no battalion until the divide and movement to contact. I am sure that there were officers with Benteen and Custer that could hold their own in regards to heavy drinking,
AZ Ranger
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Post by magpie on Sept 19, 2015 9:06:22 GMT -6
Issue Ranger when the division was made by Custer what was his selection based on.
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Post by fred on Sept 19, 2015 9:46:21 GMT -6
Issue Ranger when the division was made by Custer what was his selection based on. When the command FAL, this was the breakdown: Right wing under Reno, two battalions: Keogh (I): B, C and I. Yates (F): E, F, and L. Left wing under Benteen (H), two battalions: Weir (D): A, D, and H. French (M): G, K, and M. All they did at the divide was to take B from Keogh and put it to guard the pack train. Since Keogh was senior to Yates, however, they pulled L from Yates and gave it to Keogh: 3 companies for Keogh; two for Yates. That fulfills the seniority requirement. As for Benteen and Reno, they simply switched K and A, and I believe Custer wanted it that way because Moylan was a good buddy of Custer and Cooke. Maybe they wanted him to keep an eye on Reno, who knows? Weir may have been even closer to Custer, but I believe there may have been some issues between them and anyway, there is some evidence pointing to Benteen demanding D Company for his battalion. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by dave on Sept 19, 2015 14:47:09 GMT -6
Magpie Seems the hard drinking in the military in the 1870's has continued through the ages into today's military forces. I wonder how much the poor quality of potable water that was cut with booze and the boredom on the frontier, especially the long cold winters, contributed to the situation. I enjoyed reading your researched material in your post. I don't agree with all of your points, what a shock, but appreciate your efforts. Please post some more threads. Regards Dave www.stripes.com/us-military-s-alcohol-soaked-culture-taking-toll-on-servicemembers-1.201959
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 20, 2015 6:20:36 GMT -6
I would confirm that there was some hard drinking in Viet Nam in 1969-70. I saw it and participated.
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Post by tubman13 on Sept 20, 2015 8:47:34 GMT -6
Broadly (with it's limitations) we have Tea totaler Custer assigning Companies and it seems likely he might put all the drinkers together under his alcoholic Major especially for the central and direct attack (the boose cruise to the gates of death). My assessment of the performance of Reno's Officer corps is not good. The charge to break the encirclement and subsequent retreat was disorderly, there was a complete failure to organize cover for the river crossing, organize a defense for the ridge, regroup etc. All these things should have been done without Reno. Of course Reno should have secured water and organized his position on the bluffs but all in all despite his alcoholism he recognized he was riding into a trap and reacted aggressivly putting out a skirmish line within a few hundred yards of the Indians entrenchment (natural "works"). He recognized his flank was being turned and swung his skirmish line into the timber. He then saw his position in the glade of timber could not be maintained. Benteen, Girard, and Herendeen all believed it was a class A defensive position. Unfortunately we don't have Terry's or Sheridan's thoughts on that. We do have the Indians thoughts on it and they were about to assault the position but Reno withdrew before they could ( See Graham (53) page 96 3rd or 4th paragraph under Eastman's Sioux account ). It seems the general consensus is Indians will not attack a position unless they are very sure of success with low casualties. Thus I'm concluding that they like Reno felt the position could not be held or the Indians would chose bottle it up instead of assault it.. Again Reno acts very aggressively and breaks the encirclement and retreats. The Indians chasing him 10 minutes South and then by some accounts fearful they were being drawn into ambush or that Custer's approach needed their attentions drew off and lost 10 more minutes on the return. Much as Benteen concluded there was no difference to the Custer situation as 20 minutes to be slaughtered or 20 minutes to be chased is all the diversion Reno could offer Custer. Does anyone know the personnel well enough to know if these were the hardest drinking Companies (A., G., and M)? One other related interesting aspect is Reno's claim that in his charge/retreat that the lead company took the greatest casualties. It's hard to know who was killed when. So Reno lead, A company followed, then M and then G. . For the duration of the campaign A Company had 9 killed, M Company had 12 killed and the tail G Company lost 14. Of M companies loses I believe one was wounded on the Skirmish line and abandoned by Dr. who found a chest wound and Taylor said Tanner was killed later on the bluffs. Leaving us with A having lost 9, then M loosing 10 and G at the tail loosing 14. Perhaps some one can revise the list with other KIA's not occuring in the retreat. It's interesting because the numbers do not really support either contention: 1.) that of Reno (that advance took the greatest loss) or 2.) the rest of us who thought the tail took all the losses. In fact it is more like the Lyman Sioux account that they retreated along Sioux lines ( continous flank fire). This supports Reno's contention that the Indians were in the Timber ( realize Reno's advance and retreat followed along the tree line of the river and not as Maguire shows). Perhaps someone can further tweak the retreat casualties for/with me. Of course according to Taylor: Reno was passing the flask to Lt. Hodgson his adjutant who later lost his life and you have Girard or Herendeen passing the flask to Charlie Reynolds who made himself a fine target prior to his death. I am doing some editing of this so I'm not trying to be tricky but just improve the post. And to think there was no "Famous Grouse" to pass around the Hill!
Regards, Tom
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Post by dave on Sept 20, 2015 9:20:02 GMT -6
Magpie Just a quick reaction to Steve's comment about hard drinking in Nam when he was there. I can only imagine what it was like in the heat, humidity of the jungle all the while seeking the enemy and not to be found first, that a stiff drink or cold one---even a warm beer---would be a blessing. I am amazed that there was not more incidents of inebriation at the LBH.
I know there have been studies on men under combat conditions but common sense would lead one to understand this the worst stress a person could have. They certainly had to resist the urge to have tunnel vision and keep searching and watching for the enemy. Some of this I know to be true from listening to my father about his experience in WW II during the Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands, when his ship was torpedoed.
I wonder just how much effect alcoholic beverages would have on an regular drinker, maybe a functioning alcoholic, like Reno while under the combat stress during the LBH? His adrenaline gland must have been pumping out overtime. I know adrenaline increases stress so his blood pressure had to be incredibly high. Regards Dave
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 20, 2015 9:26:39 GMT -6
Black Label beer in steel cans at 10 cents per can purchased a case at a time for $2.40.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 20, 2015 9:52:16 GMT -6
There are a few nights in Montana when I am that same guy. I don't wander far from my cabin and certainly don't drive.
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Post by fred on Sept 20, 2015 9:53:40 GMT -6
We drank like fish in Vietnam. Of course, we had an officers' club and God forbid you came to work drunk. Automatic Article-15, officers included. I still have a headache from those binges. Of course when they told us we had to run a night convoy, we had good reason to drink... and to go to Confession!!!!
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 20, 2015 10:05:10 GMT -6
I visited the officers club at MAG 11 and was glad to see the officers were people just like the rest of us.
Steve
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Post by magpie on Sept 20, 2015 10:36:13 GMT -6
I am amazed at how well Reno performed if one takes the two Indian accounts of Lyman and Eastman he was well ahead of their every move. I am not able to judge how Custer wanted him to respond only that Reno was ahead. I don't drink at all but I think if I was assigned to the Cold Harbor attack I might have. The stress of being assigned the short end on a stick or as a pawn in a war of attrition is great and at those times intelligence is a curse ignorance bliss even if it came from a bottle.Your survival is dependent on performance though and it's well confirmed alcohol decreases performance. Vietnam and our current situation is more about being left holding the very unpopular bag, after our politicians and the driving news media have failed us. The stress of being a caring commander ever greater. Reno seemed greatly affected by the loss of the young Lt. Hodgson. I remember an interview of a antiaircraft gunner that survived service through several komikazi attacks ( as a point of reference gunners had such high mortality that our government waited 50 years to release the statistics) who observed a man at a nearby gun give the most brilliant performance then suddenly get up say something stupid and jump over board. That sailor as many others said every man has his breaking point so Reno cracked a little after reaching the "bluffs" so what.
So my question was what was the basis for the selection of companies for each battalian. Fred's given his answer and I don't find it surprising only a disapointing reality for the army that it was purely seniority. I think a dash of being in Custer's dog house is also apparent in at least my superficial readings. I am not well read on army procedures, etiquete, and tactics of the day. One would hope teams were assembled according to the need of the battle plan ( of course many say what plan? )but I'm not surprised at all by Fred's answer and it fits the old grunt saying SNAFU ( situation normal: All F#(KED UP ).
I've had some fun with a vision of Reno going to his pack that night and finding his keg empty, flying of in a rage at the approaching packers and spewing wiskey or perhaps forgetting to cap his flask he hoped to refill, saying things are missing and threatening to kill packers. Just a vision no proof.
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Post by Beth on Sept 20, 2015 14:44:36 GMT -6
Magpie BLBH is a big enough snafu that you don't need to add complications like searching for inner personal rivalries as the cause. Try first understanding it as a Battle with professional soldiers trying to do their best. When you start getting a handle on that, perhaps you will see all the conspiracy, dereliction of duty and other theories are really fiddle faddle.
Beth
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Post by magpie on Sept 20, 2015 19:24:01 GMT -6
Gee Beth I didn't see that in my post at all, always the trouble with the written word. I don't see conspiracy at all (0%) no "Sioux blankets". Dereliction of duty I place at 15%. Lack of communication 50% and I don'y like communicating. It certainly wasn't Custer's finest hour. I was afraid my post would be viewed pro Reno when I wasn't pro Reno. I am unsure what he was supposed to accomplish under the circumstances. Don't really like the man but I think he was dead on and pulled off some pretty perceptive and difficult moves. White feather don't see a lot just the one poor kid crumpled up in the low spot in the coral till someone shot him. We all have been studying the topography, the Indians, the tactical History of every Indian battle all at our finger tips and we all been doing it for years. There was non of that back then. They got up before sun up and headed on down a valley that wasn't on the maps in a land they were not born to like so many of us were. They tried to do their duty. I believe they were poorly trained and very tired. They faced very poor odds and their commander was a gambler. The Indians were not a nest of angry hornets but very experienced, highly trained, highly motivated, very knowledgeable about terrain and tactics: both theirs and ours. They brought to the fight mixed arms, a tremendous advantage as arrows can be lobbed over your colleagues, over hills over dead horses. All manner of arms for hand to hand for horse to horse fighting. No one but Annie Oakley and a Hollywood star can hit the broad side of the barn from the back of a horse. A lot of the pictographs show the warrior putting the barrel of the gun on the victim and then firing. These people knew how to get the job done and did just like a buffalo hunt: "the arrows made the horses go mad".
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