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Post by herosrest on Aug 20, 2023 18:17:34 GMT -6
Martin and Kanipe could indicate where Custer took a look. The scouts also.
DeRudio reported Custer on the bluffs with Cooke, after the retreat into the timber and when his company detail had left him.
These are seperate events.
Curley stated that Bouyer was on the bluffs waving his hat before riding down to meet Custer.
Martin stated he saw Reno fighting. Therefore DeRudio did not see Custer on the bluffs.
Varnum was able to identify Company E by horse colors. That is believable. DeRudio's details are not possible. He could not identify faces at the distance involved. That is a fact.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 20, 2023 18:23:00 GMT -6
No it’s not a fact - it’s your opinion. DeRudio explained how HE saw re:what everyone else also said happened, and explained where it happened, in agreement and confirmed by numerous others. Facts. Don’t replace facts and testimony with your opinions. Too many witnesses agree on what happened there. DeRudio is just 1 who was quite specific where it was. These guys all describe cheering and waving etc just after hitting the bluffs and getting to Weir Hill. It was an incident that happened where they all describe it did. They werent on the bluffs all that long a distance - 1/2-3/4 mile maybe. Thompson Black Hill Trails "We soon gained the top of the bluffs where a view of the surrounding country was obtained... About a half mile further on we came in sight of the Indian village...When the companies came in sight of the village they gave the regular charging yell..."Goldin in a letter to Brady 1904 "As soon as this was discovered Custer rode over toward the river accompanied only by his orderly trumpeter, and stopped for a moment on the top of a high pinnacle, where we saw him wave his hat, apparently in salutation to some one in the distance, and then come dashing back toward the head of the column.."DeRudio RCOI "General Custer, Lieut. Cook and another man I could not recognize came to the highest point of the bluff and waved their hats and made motions like they were cheering"
Martin After General Custer saw the village with no Indians in it I suppose he was glad and he pulled off his hat and gave a cheer and said "Courage boys we will get them and as soon, as we get through we will go back to our station."kanipe “..after the highest point on the bluffs was reached the men, through their eagerness, broke into something like disorder, as previously noted.WMRH With Tim McCoy "Custer and his brother went to the right of us and halted on a small hill. His troops were moving forward below him. Custer turned around as he reached the top of the hill and waved his hat, and the soldiers at the bottom of the hill waved their hats and shouted."
LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION. DeRudio RCOI A. I did not see any part of the column of General Custer. The only observation I made was while I was in the woods. General Custer, Lieut. Cook and another man I could not recognize came to the highest point of the bluff and waved their hats and made motions like they were cheering and pretty soon disappeared. I judge by that that probably his column was behind the bluffs"Then he marked it on the map - Point 7. Fact. They did. And hey - they all agreed! (and a few more - Thompson, Goldin, etc) On the high/est point. On the cheering. On South Coulee. On point 7. Martin: We marched on Gen. Custer's trail and when we got up this ridge from where I saw Maj. Reno fighting on the bottom we saw Maj. Reno's command and the Major himself, the men still retreating on the bluff. Yep he also said Custer command went down the coulee behind the long ridge south of Weir Peaks, after hitting Weir Hill. When/where the other scouts said they "were left behind". Your point? No one mentioned seeing Bouyer. No one mentioned seeing any one wave (or anything else) from Weir Peaks. 2 incidents - Custer and Bouyer - no doubt. 1/2 mile apart. Both explained well by the witnesses (IF Curley was there - see WMRH). Curley w/HL Scott "Q. Where was Custer when you saw Reno come across? A. Over the divide to the right of the first entrenchment. Custer saw the camp from the highest point on the ridge to the right of the first intrenchment." W/Camp "On the first line of bluffs back from the river there are two high peaks marked “A” on the map, now called Reno peaks. For some distance south of these there is a high ridge running parallel with the river, but not so high as the peaks. Custer’s command passed into the valley of a tributary of Reno Creek just behind this ridge and the peaks and went down it, going in a direction directly north and coming out into the bed of Reno Creek about a mile from its mouth at ford B"
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Post by herosrest on Aug 20, 2023 18:26:53 GMT -6
I'm afraid not, you are mistaken. That's fine and no problem.
A question for you. When did Camp see the Chicago transcripts?
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 20, 2023 18:40:35 GMT -6
Don't know.
Please - you keep saying what YOU think - SHOW WHY I am mistaken. NOT just YOUR OPINION that I am. If you're banking it all on DeRudio's timing? Or Camp's...whatever your issues are? Or all the names & descriptions from the RCOI onward that you for some reason just can't seem to figure out or worse just don't believe because..?? Nope...not enough. (clue - you know plenty about this battle - so just READ what they are telling you - and trust they are not lying to you, & that you don't need to re-think what YOU would have done - seems the good ones usually did just what they said...because others saw/explain it too).
Can you PLEASE post a couple witnesses?
You must have at least a couple people who actually place the command over the peaks? You talk about it enough, mention this and that theory - then don't seem to follow up(?)
Now Curley in 1938 had a SLIGHTLY different version. OK.
w/Dustin 1938 "When we reached the ridge the soldiers kept marching on the east side of Reno Hill and going down to the west side of the ridge down a ravine, running northward." At this point Custer and two other soldiers besides Bouyer and I rode over to a high point that overlooks the Little Big Horn Valley to see what was going on"
maybe you could run with that?
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Post by herosrest on Aug 21, 2023 4:16:04 GMT -6
This is the issue with how many times Custer viewed the valley, from the bluffs. It's that simple. From what we know of those present who survived, men of Reno's battalion saw Custer's advance along the bluffs as they advanced down th valley This is consistent with Varnum's slightly later observation of the grey horse troop. We then have Kanipe, Martin, Thompson, Korn, the scouts and a number of the Indian informants. Curtis placed Custer waving his hat in salutation, at his point '2' on the bluffs which is in the area heading watercarrier's ravine. Now, here's the problem since this is a fubar in the sense that Custer's actions were not related to Reno's command. He was was addressing the five companies. The three Crow scouts were left behind in the vicinity of the original Hodgson marker (since removed) and somewhere along their subsequent ways, Bouyer gained oversight of the valley from somewhere along the bluffs such that he became aware of Reno's retreat and communicated to Custer that he had news for him, before riding off downriver to join up with the Lt. Col. You either accept Curley or you do not. Camp himself, observed of Curley that his abilities with specific terrain was somewhat lacking in the sense that he could indicate the general area of events. This human trait pervades pedantic study of this battle and for example Wagner III's idea that because he had decided who went Weir he then knew when they did it based on surmised gallop or walking paces. That gives you 20 minute time slots which is about the only useful outcome of such exercises. You can apply military gaits to distances but again that is based on marches in the field annd not the accelerations and whims of battle. You desperately wish the stupid which is Cedar Coulee to be true. It is not. No one of the Cheyennes or any Indian saw Custer's command in Cedar Coulee or on Godfrey's route further northeast along ridge above it. That is because that terrain is hidden to all views from anywhere in the valley. The Cheyenne had outposts on the bluffs above and below the mouth of MTC and NMTC. They could not see up Cedar Coulee and if they saw dust they knew not what it was, maybe a pony herd, maybe hunters returning, maybe buffalo coming to water. Maybe another band arriving to camp. They would see troops once they climbed north out of MTC. Once Custer himself did that, he would have been visible to Bouyer. Hmmmm.......... How the hell would Bouyer know it was Custer he was looking at? Well, the scouts carried glasses - telescopes and God knows what else. Why did Reno tell Terry that the siege began at 2:3pm? So even then, how did Bouyer locate Custer to wave his hat at him? Well, Custer's unique battle-flag was there beside him in the hands of his personal bodyguard. Custer had DeRudio's powerful field glasses. They communicated or Curley was full of pork and beans. Custer's command went into MTC. They rode over the ridge between Reno Hill and MTC. How do you know that Camp located Reno Hill correctly? How precisely do you believe that Camp located it. Was it centred on Reno's dugout? Did Camp ever discuss the battle with Reno? Let's pick the logicof the locations to pieces. What use is it?
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Post by herosrest on Aug 21, 2023 4:33:56 GMT -6
The underlaying substance of this criticism - DeRudio put distance to his sighting, of 1,000 yards. There is no reason to doubt this because he subsequently went to the terrain and described it. Had his wife and daughter been up there in red dresses and bonnets, he would not have recognised them.
Regardless of your need to pin down the terrain as Camp understood it from the various interviews he conducted on the ground and by letter, for example the only conclusion possible with Edgerley is that they corresponded; that does not resolve how many times Custer viewed the valley from the bluffs. What's your take on that? Then of course, there were scouts and soldier strays up there. Also Indians flagging messages to the villages and maybe even the Everywhere Spirit. You can pin terrain to the last millimeter but it will not resolve the issues of variance implicit to personal accounts of those present and told subsequently by varying ability to communicate.
Curtis's '2' is not Benteen's 'G'. Benteen had Martin and Kanipe with him and within a half hour of the actual event. This was not mentioned at Chicago because Benteen and Reno presented that they did not have a clue where Custer went, or was.
Benteen and Reno shielded themselves from accusations, at Chicago. You then end up with a minimum of two realities over that period of what... thirty months. That carries on, and on, and on. Particularly because the Chicago transcripts allow reality to be trampled under foot as Benteen's waffle and Reno's calculated prescience illustrate. Your take is that Benteen, after changing his mind, placed a guidon on terrain from which no-one downriver on the battlefield could see it. That needs some serious though as also your ability to comprehend events rather than fascinate lumps of sod which you are struggling to comprehend.
This is not an attack on your analyses but rather a wake up, call. How many times did Custer view the valley from the bluffs?
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 21, 2023 4:35:20 GMT -6
DeRudio says exactly how he knew it was Custer and Cooke at the RCOI - read it. A. There were 3 together, one was Lieutenant Cooke, the other one I could not recognize. I don’t know whether it was another officer or an orderly. I recognized General Custer and Lieutenant Cooke by their dress, they had on blue shirts and buckskin pants.
He also said he saw then RIGHT where they were known to be (see Martin). Do YOU have ANY specifc statements from witnesses to back all those opinions up? I am not deperate. I believe the witnesses. You WERE NOT ONE! As for Hostiles on the bluffs - oh look!..SB did... Standing Bear, July 12, 1910 "Was on bluffs (where Knipe saw Indians), and Custer went down coulee into Medicine Tail and crossed over to Custer ridge in full view of village."He Dog gave Camp the impression Custer cut across the hill from South Coulee - Martin, who was there, disagreed. "Inq. John Martin. Did Custer follow the bottom South Coulee all the way and make turn into Medicine Tail or cut across the hill and save some of the distance. He Dog seemed to think Custer cut across the hill. No - Custer followed coulee all the way"Are you actually saying Bouyer couldn't see Custer et. al. coming down MTC? WHY would you say soemthign so silly?? No kidding. Point 7 is. Weir Hill is. Curtis has them hit the bluffs too early (they hit the bluffs per Curley Kanipe and Martin 3-500 north of Reno). They then went 1/2mile or so and cut down the coulee (Martin, Scouts, etc etc). They were not on the bluffs all that long. Curtis point 2 is down a ravine, not on a summit. DO you have ANY witnesses? Look a Hodgson marker north of reno hill near where Custer was last seen. Is this near the same location where the scouts say they were left behind when Custer went down the coulee to the right? SUre it is. North of Reno. At the highest Hill. Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 21, 2023 4:45:39 GMT -6
He, the railroad surveyer, located it ALMOST EXACTLY. As THAT IS EXACTLY WHERE IT IS ON A MAP!!! Bearings. Distances. Altitudes. And just happens to be where all the witnesses describe it being....Distances. Descriptions. Speculation and opinion. You are saying DeRudio lied. For what reason?? Lied - even though his testimony matches at least 6 other people who describe the same event in the SAME location. Weird 'argument'. A. There were 3 together, one was Lieutenant Cooke, the other one I could not recognize. I don’t know whether it was another officer or an orderly. I recognized General Custer and Lieutenant Cooke by their dress, they had on blue shirts and buckskin pants.
Yeesh you are floundering.
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Post by herosrest on Aug 21, 2023 5:35:16 GMT -6
THE RAILROAD SURVEYOR LOCATED WHAT HE UNDERSTOOD. Let's take Martin, which was 1908, if I recall. So there is point Camp X 1 and a somewhat differing view by HeDog which kinda rings a bell but not in your context of it. You don't ride along the bottoms to get to MTC. I'm not going to say it again, ask some of the horse people or maybe I can dig up a video. Here's BB's take on Camp's He Dog interview conducted by William Berger. Fighting started at Finley and kept up all along. At Keogh is where Crazy Horse charged and broke through and split up soldiers into two bunches. Horses stampeded toward river, getting away from soldiers. There was no charge by Custer's [men] on ridge during fight. Custer's men at end of ridge. Did not run out ofammunition. Found ammunition on dead soldiers.
When the men rushed from Custer's last stand toward river, the dismounted ones took to the gully, and the mounted ones tried to get away to south toward Finley. Line H to C mounted soldiers trying to get away when they ran toward gully. Foley rode out of fight from H. (Corroborates twenty-eight dead men in gully.)How! That's 1910, and of course would have influenced Camp's understanding of the fight, in some way. If you look at the creeks running into MTC from Martin's Ridge, they all seemto kink north towards their mouths. You could cut across the kink of the dogleg. Martin didn't think they did. Martin certainly clears up any doubts that he returned from MTC rather than anywhere else, since it would be difficult to screw that up although Camp understanding what he was being told is a different aspect of his investigations. Exactly the same as Curtis with WMRH. Now, a productive relationship with AZR fell into doldrums over WMC and his mistakes but, ask him about MTC and the routes of travel north. It's like a trench which horses cannot climb out of along the upper reaches. He rides it every year and knows the trails. He knows the route over the ridge. He riden the ride
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Post by herosrest on Aug 21, 2023 5:56:36 GMT -6
DeRudio. You say, I say, DeRudio lied. I did not say that and am returned to this game of people telling the Wonderfully Scrumptious Moi, what I said. I usually know what I said and in these discussions there is an audit of that. I did not not accuse as you state. DeRudio spoke under oath and one should expect a modicum of truths under those circumstances. People who plead innocent in Court are implicit to the same duty but what they state is weighed by the evidence, jury and Judge imposing guidance. The RCoI was a slightly different beast but be that as it may, it is a delightful snack and study of formal processes. Reno and by implication Benteen, were defending themselves from serious accusations of wrongdoing which could have terminated their careers had a judicial or senatorial investigation been ordered. Reno pre-empted that by requesting the Inquiry although Whittacker was not military and the Inquiry unlawful other than authorised by Grant's authority.
DeRudio was mistaken and military handbooks confirm this with what can be viewed at which distances. Having had this discussion many times myself, simply accept that he could not have seen what he stated. He saw figures on the bluff but there was no way in which he could recognise those people at the distance stated, by eyeball onto a skyline, at 1,000 yards. It is impossible. I was not lying and you stating that is a pain which suggests that you are wasting everyone's time. Enthusiasm is fine but please rein in the rampant self beliefs and righteousness. It's difficult to open parachutes on these boards.
If I remember well, Rosebud has ridden those ridges in his time and has a wealth of horse in him.
Regards.
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Post by herosrest on Aug 21, 2023 6:10:06 GMT -6
Here's a question, given the little we know of events from a handful of controversial participant survivors and the general attitudes of one hat fits all that goes hand in hand with the battle. When trumpeter Martin was sent back with orders for Capt. F.W. Benteen; given the little we actually know - What color horse was Martin riding? Anecdote - Custer's Cavalry Horses at the Little Bighorn.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 21, 2023 6:11:20 GMT -6
What bottoms are you talking about?
WHo cares? Your paste isn't related to this subject matter. Other then "He Dog".
Now THIS, ok... "I went back to Hunkpapas camp, and then we looked and saw other soldiers coming on the big hill right over east. [Note: this was Custer's column.] They kept right on down the river and crossed Medicine Tail coulee and onto little rise. (The first rise above flat south of mouth of Medicine Tail) (where Foley found). Pointed distance as same from his office to tank so that it agrees with my map exactly (about 600 ft.)."
And? Huh while Herendeen WHO WAS THERE, said "from the point we called Weir’s Hill, there is a sort of swale runs down and it is nice traveling to the creek that runs in there". You actually base your opinions a rider from 150 years later (who is may be right too), or a scout who was there numerous seasons including at the battle? What "bottoms" did they ride in?
And at RCOI it is confirmed crossing MTC isn't easy - close to the river or 2 miles up. Yet several witnesses explain doing just that after the battle
And?
As he understood it with about a 100 witnesses - often on sight. Martin, Herendeen, Kanipe, Curley, HM, WMRH, Goes Ahead, Godfrey, Rees like Little Sioux and Strikes two, Edgerly, Standing Bear, He Dog, Varnum, Mathey, Hare, etc etc. Figure he got a lot of it right huh? How do we know? Because so many of them say the same things happening at the same places and that is what he shows/describes.
Camp did a walk down Cedar into MTC to see exactly what one could see from where. He was trying to get a notion of just where Martin had been sent back - where Custer could see the lower part of village. it was 6184' from the river.
Martin: Custer first halted on Weir's hill and took a look at village
Martin says whole column passed over the high ridge from which they could plainly see village and children and dogs in it. Martin says he was with Custer after he passed the high ground and left him just as the command started down a ravine to get off the bluff, somewhat to the right of highest ground and about 1000 feet from it...
On return w/Message: I got on same ridge from which Genl. Custer saw the village the first time and on looking down on the bottom I saw Major Reno and his command engaged already, ...
with Benteen: We marched on Gen. Custer's trail and when we got up this ridge from where I saw Maj. Reno fighting on the bottom we saw Maj. Reno's command and the Major himself, the men still retreating on the bluff. ...When Benteen met Reno on hill
He was clearly at the Martin's Ridge/ Reno retreat area - near Weir's HILL - not anywhere else.
At least 2 witnesses at the RCOI stated that MTC had high banks which would make crossing it very hard except within 100’ of the ford, or passed 2 miles up. That would certainy give a reason for going towards the river and onto the flats if Custer wanted to move north.
Sheridan RCOI Q) Following the banks of the ravine from “B” did you notice the approaches to it? A) Yes, sir, I went down the ravine on what may be known as the left bank of it, I suppose two miles, and then crossed it. Q) There are bluffs on the right bank following it from the mouth up? A) After you get above the mouth 30 or 40 yards it would be difficult to cross it till you went up nearly two miles, it had steep cut banks.
Herendeen RCOI Q) Do you know whether there was a ford there? A) The next year there was a good ford there, right in the vicinity of the mouth of the creek. Q) A command moving in from above there, how would it get to the place where the bodies were found afterwards, with a view to getting a good route? A) It was easy only at one place where the creek came in, and they could cross at the mouth of it where I was myself.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 21, 2023 6:14:31 GMT -6
I think you SERIOUSLY underestimate how much we do know. A dozen witnessess all agreeing on something so exactly kinda shows you what to believe. They arent controversial - you just dispute their facts, which all agree...seems it is time to change your errant notions.
The answer is...4.
” Custer wrote a message and handed to a young man on a sorrel-roan horse who galloped away.”
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 21, 2023 6:19:41 GMT -6
Ok he didn't lie - my apologies, He was mistaken. He made a mistake in decribing somethign he got exactly right, an event at least 6 other people said happened, in that same location. Got it.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 21, 2023 7:03:58 GMT -6
Difficult - for you. I htink YOU ned to Read better. Camp knew all about Edgerly/Reno/Weir Peaks. He knows their bearings and the distances from various locations (like Weir Hill) and from each other and from Sioux Hill. He gave their altitudes. He knew what went on there (and what didn't). He read info and heard from witnesses. Why do YOU think he struggled with them? Seems very clear. "See if "two peaks and a narrow flat-top crescent shaped hill adjacent thereto on the east" will answer to description at Weir peaks. Yes. The crescent is 350 ft long around the crescent. Crescent is concave toward the west." Various references to Edgerly peaks, also marked on his map... " Vincent Charley was shot and fell off his horse Wylie got down to pick up the guidon and at the same time Edgerly was stooping over Charlie and told him to lie quiet and he (Edgerly) would return and rescue him. Here Edgerly had difficulty in mounting his horse. This was some distance south of Edgerly peaks (and probably about opposite the ravine on east side of bluffs in which the cedar trees are growing). Says no other troop got as far in the advance as D troop"And Reno Peaks... Don't let the names confuse you again. All the same place AKA Weir Point these days.
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