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Post by herosrest on Jan 28, 2024 18:17:56 GMT -6
White Man Runs Him's (excerpted from) version given in 1919 and transcribed by Col. Tim McCoy, (High Eagle - a Michigan Arapahoe Cavalry Officer who fought in Europe and dropped bombs on Hitler) published in Col. William Graham's The Custer Myth,[/b]
'Then Custer started moving toward the ridge. Mitch Boyer noticed scouts Custer sent to look over the ridge, had followed Reno, thus he called Curley, Goes Ahead, Hairy Moccasin and me and said: "Let us go over to the ridge and look at the lodges." When we reached there, we saw that the lodges were over in the valley quite a ways down the river, so we moved on ahead, Custer following. This was about 9 o'clock in the morning. Custer moved slowly, taking lots of time and stopping occasionally. He did not leave that place until Reno had started fighting. Before Reno left Custer on the flat, another body of soldiers had been ordered away towards the left, but we were far in advance at that time, so I do not know where they went. Custer and his brother went to the right of us and halted on a small hill. His troops were moving forward below him. Custer turned around as he reached the top of the hill and waved his hat, and the soldiers at the bottom of the hill waved their hats and shouted. Custer then proceeded on up the ridge and his men followed. They were moving rapidly and the scouts were forced to gallop to keep up with them. At a certain point on the ridge they turned to the right and rode down a coulee in a northern direction. The scouts took up position on the high bluffs........
Again, observation of the valley can only have taken place at and from (at and from) the point on the bluffs which Ed Curtis indicated as '2', as indicated to him by WMRH, more than 10 years earlier.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jan 29, 2024 7:51:45 GMT -6
Or not. Last opinion makes no sense. Lots of places to see the valley, and specifically the village. You can certainly see part of it from Point 7/G - like Custer did. So if only there was some confirmation of your opinions on how important, or even correct, 2 is. Otherwise, what you posted after has glaring mistakes and incorrect notions about Martin's ridge and nothing about SS hill. If only it mattered, but thanks - that helps confirm our topic - that Custer was NOT viewing the village from there, cause Martin & DeRudio among others specifically confirm only part of the village was viewable from the Lookout/point 7/Weirs Hill/G. Of course since no one but Curtis mentioned anyone being anywhere near that pt 2, it is fun but insignificant info. Views from the actual point 7 Lookout were blocked some...they could see part of the village, not the battlefield, etc. Views were also blocked by Weirs Hill from Reno - part of the village, towards B, etc. See the RCOI for real good info about all this - check out "Weirs Hill", "point 7", "point 8", and also the route/Ridge/Hill Martin talks about where they saw PART of the village, saw Reno etc. This is confirmed then and after. Martin "Then the General took me with him and we rode to the top of the hill, where we could see the village in the valley on the other side of the river. It was a big village, but we couldn't see it all from there, though we didn't know it then; but several hundred tepees were in plain sight."
Benteen "...Some of the officers say that the battlefield was in sight, but I know positively that it was not, having gone over it two or three times since"
Now - as you yourself posted... LOL! You are joking right? STOP making stuff up! BECAUSE clearly I am not the one to ignore them - at all - as you very well know. Obviously not, as I quoted the scouts numerous times previously, cause they are among those who confirm Martin (& are very contrary to the Curtis story). I quote and refer to the NA often. Since I have stated it a ton of times, I clearly agree the scouts were up there where THEY said Custer was viewing at the highest point north of Reno. They were clearly in this area, and I post pictures of the headstone near the high hill they refer to, when Custer went down South Coulee and 'they were left behind'. I agree they continued down the ridge towards Edgerly peaks to those high points as well. I also agree NA place Custer in Cedar after he left the scouts behind near Martins ridge, at point 8. Also see Martin saying quite clearly he was up there, and his Ridge, and Custer was seen up there too. Of course his troops were located right in that vicinity. Glad you are finally getting on board with the scouts...and may see how wrong Curtis was about the significance of 2. White Man Runs Him W/Hugh Scott 1919 "Custer saw the camp from the highest point on the ridge to the right of the first intrenchment. He just saw Reno going down the valley but did not see him come back."Hairy Moccasin "Custer yelled to us to stop, then told us to go to the high hill ahead (the high point just north of where Reno later entrenched). From here we could see the village and could see Reno fighting."Goes Ahead "Custer rode to the edge of the high bank and looked over to the place where Reno’s men were, as though planning the next move. When they had arrived at about the point where Lieutenant Hodgson’s headstone was placed later, the three Crow scouts saw the soldiers dismounting in front of the Dakota camp and thought the enemy were “too many..."Close to where Reno and Benteen later in the day were attacked by the Dakotas on the ridge of hills above the river, the three Crow scouts were left behind and Custer’s command went down the draw toward the lower ford on the run.""Custer's command as well as Bouyer and the 4 Crows saw Reno's fight in the valley. Then Custer and command turned down south coulee into Medicine Tail Coulee and went down toward river and out onto flat."Custer had told the Crow scouts to stay out of the fight and they went to the left along the ridge overlooking the river while he took his command to the right (Goes Ahead is sure Curley, the Crow scout, was not with him)Curley/WMRH w/HL Scott Q. Where was Custer when you saw Reno come across? A. Over the divide to the right of the first entrenchment. Custer saw the camp from the highest point on the ridge to the right of the first intrenchment.
w/Dustin 1938 "When we reached the ridge the soldiers kept marching on the east side of Reno Hill and going down to the west side of the ridge down a ravine, running northward." At this point Custer and two other soldiers besides Bouyer and I rode over to a high point that overlooks the Little Big Horn Valley to see what was going on"With Camp On the first line of bluffs back from the river there are two high peaks marked “A” on the map, now called Reno peaks. For some distance south of these there is a high ridge running parallel with the river, but not so high as the peaks. Custer’s command passed into the valley of a tributary of Reno Creek just behind this ridge and the peaks and went down it, going in a direction directly north and coming out into the bed of Reno Creek about a mile from its mouth at ford B"Remember - those in the valley saw Custer/troops at/around Martin's Ridge, (and were up there themselves), & Custer saw them. See kanipe, Martin, Scouts, etc. Luckily these sightings were also located just there via various sources/distances given. "Some of Reno's men had seen a party of Custer's command, including Custer himself, on the bluffs about the time the Indians began to develop in Reno's front. The party was heard to cheer, and seen to wave their hats as if to give encouragement, and then they disappeared behind the hills."
Martin and scouts explain this, and specifically say right where it happened. See above, point 8, the high point/point 7 “north of Reno”. Thompson, like kanipe said, talks about being on the bluffs 1/2mile then hitting Martin's Ridge and also being left behind. Kanipe, Curley, and the others confirm this as well. Also you can see where the scouts and various other NA sources locate Custer Lookout....confirming Martin, DeRudio, Kanipe, even Camp, etc. You keep plugging! You are almost there. Ease up on Curtis as the end all and I feel you just may get it! Many there knew about the high place Martin's Ridge... Wallace "Q. Was there any high point of land on the side of the river on which you were that was any nearer to the water than that which Major Reno took when he crossed over?A. Yes, near the water.Q. Where was that?A. We had passed over it going to the point where the Indians first engaged Company D. {that'd be @edgerly peaks where they dismounted and engaged}Thanks to Edgerly & Hare etc., we know how they crossed over it on the way back too. And where the Indians went to after Godfrey skirmish. See SSH.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 29, 2024 13:53:01 GMT -6
And the total watering time would depend on how many horses could be watered at one time, which is why Benteen's watering at the morass took somewhat longer than did Custer's in the North Fork. Benteen could not water all the horses at once, and also probably had to cut it short a bit [because of the approaching train], while Custer could, and so could Reno at the ford when the command entered at two different points and spread out in crossing. Gordie, I once met a man, and his words were wise, and he looked me in the eyes. He said: "Brother don't you compromise with what you feel"....................................................... Doran has an entirely different theory on why he believes Benteen remained at the morass watering hole for (he claims) nearly 30 minutes. He states that if Benteen were just interested in watering his horses it would have taken no more than 15 minutes to do so there. However, he believes that Benteen was ordered to remain at the morass to await the arrival of the Pack Train. He makes a case for Benteen having been actually ordered to return to the main trail (I believe by Sharrow) and shortly after returning to the Ash Creek trail, he was met (according to Godfrey's Army-Navy Journal article (09/02/76) by another messenger from HQ (Doran/Camp believes this to be Cpl. Eldon French). He theorizes that the message was for Benteen to halt at the morass crossing of Ash Creek and await the arrival of the Pack Train for the purpose of escorting it to the high ground. Thus, he alleviates Benteen of any wrong-doing by dilly dallying at the morass and taking his time watering the horses. He claims that Benteen would later obfuscate this entire incident for his own reasons. Doran claims that Custer sent Cpl. French back while he viewed the backtrail from Mathey's Knoll, (where he got the first glimpse of the village in the valley). From this knoll, Custer could easily see the dust raised by both Benteen and the Pack Train following just behind him. Oh ye of Little faith. When Gray constructed his Bouyer based reconstruction, it was a work of art in the sense of taking constituents(components) and arranging them to subtly portray what didn't happen as what did. He began at the false sighting of cluster on the bluffs and then jammed his components into a model around that crux. He did it in a literary romp which entertains and rides over the capabilities of logic by splattering his data across and into the story. With Curley, he moved him about like a chess piece and showed, no couldn't be that - had to this that. Anyways, Curtis's '2' is exactly correct. If you prefer, think of it as Mathey's Knoll. That begs the question was Benteen's Italian trumpeter confused about the names of the officers? When did Martin ever get to spend even a second of time with, or near Weir..... I'd think that through some. Martin at Benteen's side and Weir everywhere and anywhere but same.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 29, 2024 14:16:26 GMT -6
Here's an example of what you do.
Hairy Moccasin "Custer yelled to us to stop, then told us to go to the high hill ahead (the high point just north of where Reno later entrenched). From here we could see the village and could see Reno fighting."
You offer this as a proof that Custer went where Hairy Moccasin and the other scouts, were.
That is not what the words say. That is because your interpretation is a spin. The three scouts went where sent and were left behind the cavalry advance.
This is true of each point you offer to build a false case from the various comments. If you examine the accounts properly, then for example let's take WMRH and Custer watching all the brief Reno shoot and scoot in the valley. WMRH also told that he was left behind and Custer long gone. Curtis was unable to research events and WMRH, as we can and you need to up your game if reality is your interest. I realise this may not be the case, or that you limp along the partisan trails which criss the crosses.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 29, 2024 17:26:54 GMT -6
RED 6768 based considerably upon WMC's work and knowledge and research on the ground.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 29, 2024 17:46:03 GMT -6
Custer did not go on the Big Hill. Martin never stated that he did.
If you recall the discussion, your Martin's Ridge which I name Horizon Ridge, is what WMC's map shows as Weir's. When Martin was talking of the ridge he was referring to te ridge of bluffs running along from Reno Sundance to Reno Medicine Tail. The entire ridge of bluffs. The bluffs are a ridge. The ridge is a ridge and also considered a donut. The confusions are yours in relying entirely upon interpretations by WMC, without accurate definitions of what he was being told by his sources because they were not on the ground with him. Therefore WMC was making it up as he went along and amending stuff as his information and understanding improved or was updated.
Your altering position now entertains possibilities of multiple visits to observation points, by Custer and there is no proof or suggestion that that is so. I wish that there was but there is not.
You could adopt a commonsense approach with GAC having learnt the village was there, going directly to the first (nearest observation point, but it seems you will continue foisting DeRudio's impossible sighting of GAC, when it was impossible for him to make that observation from a 1,000 yards distant.
When did DeRudio first state the sighting? Do you know?
How did he come to be discussing it at Chicago?
The three Crow Scouts were on Weir's Hill, where Hodgson's marker was placed by O.J. Sweet; and have stated this in interviews. I stated this before. State it again and request you accept it and do not twist the matter further, or again.
It sliped my mind, almost; You mention stuff by Sgt. Ryan related to the beginning of the siege of Reno Hill. Where were Company M placed on the line and what terrain and hill was to Ryan's right?
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Post by johnson1941 on Jan 29, 2024 20:49:11 GMT -6
Here's an example of what you do. Hairy Moccasin "Custer yelled to us to stop, then told us to go to the high hill ahead (the high point just north of where Reno later entrenched). From here we could see the village and could see Reno fighting." You offer this as a proof that Custer went where Hairy Moccasin and the other scouts, were. That is not what the words say. That is because your interpretation is a spin. The three scouts went where sent and were left behind the cavalry advance. This is true of each point you offer to build a false case from the various comments. If you examine the accounts properly, then for example let's take WMRH and Custer watching all the brief Reno shoot and scoot in the valley. WMRH also told that he was left behind and Custer long gone. Curtis was unable to research events and WMRH, as we can and you need to up your game if reality is your interest. I realise this may not be the case, or that you limp along the partisan trails which criss the crosses. Stop. Do you really need to be spoon fed? See all the scouts, and all the others…dont just cherry pick 1 phrase to try to make some opinionated point while ignoring everything else. See Martin, DeRudio, kanipe, Benteen, etc. to confirm Custer on the high(est) hill. Its ALL there - its ALL related and relevant, and all corroborates nicely. You are still good at making the case for me…well THEIR case for them (I mostly just quote the witnesses and supply reliable data/info/maps/pictures). Hairy Moccasin "Custer yelled to us to stop, then told us to go to the high hill ahead (the high point just north of where Reno later entrenched).From here we could see the village and could see Reno fighting.""Custer's command as well as Bouyer and the 4 Crows saw Reno's fight in the valley. "...Then Custer and command turned down south coulee into Medicine Tail Coulee and went down toward river and out onto flat. Two men were killed here.."Martin said they were up there 10minutes - lots of time to see, and be seen, which GC was as we know. Even curtis agreed with the scouts (and Martin of course) and how Custer followed up the high hill north of reno and cheered…too bad he marked the map wrong. They appeared at the top of the hill, sillouetted against the sky, and signalling to Custer to follow; he and his staff went at once to the summit. This is where Custer was seen to wave a salutation to Reno's command.THEN off to the right to point 8. You’re welcome. forget curtis pt 2 - its off, and unrelated if it existed. What?!? You ARE joking AGAIN about Martin, right? Cause he said EXACTLY THAT (and referred to the highest hill as point 7 AND calls it out as Weir's Hill AND locates it correctly) Here - once more... Custer's trail passed along where Reno retreated to...he turned these hills and went on top of the ridge. All at once we looked on the bottom and saw the Indian village at the same time we could see only children end dogs and ponies around the village. ...and he pulled off his hat and gave a cheer
Q. Can you fix the point on the map where you saw the village? Look at the map and don’t try to do it unless you can. A. It was on a line leading from Major Reno’s position to the point “7” {7=highest point where DeRudio saw GC=G} Q. Can you point out on the map in what direction General Custer went after he got to the point 7? {7=highest point=Weir's Hill} A. General Custer struck to the right then struck a ravine and went down to the river.
Q. That place from which you saw the village and children, dogs and ponies - was it the highest point down the river below where Major Reno made his stand? A. Yes sir, the highest hill the very highest point around there.
WAIT…you argued all that /\ 'Martin never said...' nonsense yet again, AND THEN say this \/…what the ?!? Seriously - You OK? Woop There it is!! johnson41 said: I clearly agree the scouts were up there where THEY said Custer was viewing at the highest point north of Reno. Wow - never thought YOU would admit it. If you have stated this before the post I replied to above, I must have missed it. Since we agree, that is also, by name, where Custer was seen/viewing/cheering, per Martin, DeRudio, the scouts, Kanipe and other numerous sources. I recommend again that you read the RCOI. You may also see how/where DeRudio’s sighting re:Custer AND the exact location are specifically described/located & confirmed numerous times, then and after. See Martin, Benteen, kanipe, the scouts, etc. etc. Whom you apparently finally agree with now. 👍
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Post by johnson1941 on Jan 29, 2024 21:08:58 GMT -6
Great - if following Camp he did a so-so job. He must not have had good access to the material. Right off the bat we can see obvious errors. Really - he's only about 2200' and 25deg off. Limited access and using the topo from 1967 can do that to you. Witnesses. Gotta love em! (and trust em)...they told us exactly where all this stuff took place. It is not hard to know! Clue: "...that highest point, Weir’s Hill, probably half a mile down." Clue: "...it was 5-600 yards, or probably 3/4 mile from where Reno made his stand" Clue: "...the river was right at the foot of the bluff" Clue: "...The bluff comes in very narrow there" Clue: "the highest point on the right bank..." Clue: "I think it could not have been more than 5 or 600 yards" Clue: "The witness then designated on the map by the figure “7,” Clue: "it is 1700' from Reno retreat up to Weir's Hill Clue: *bearing To Edgerly Peak N 58 W. Clue: *bearing To Weir's Hill N 68 W. Clue: *bearing To DeWolf marker N 64 W. Clue: "a line leading from Major Reno’s position to the point “7” Easy, right? Just from those few facts? And this is overkill! M was on the northwest end towards Martins Ridge. SSH was towards the right-ish around N45W. Retreat up/DeWolf and Weirs Hill to the left-ish around N64-68W. Edgerly peaks far out @around N58W. Bearings July 28. *N End of Benteen's line to sharpshooters hill N 45 W. *To Edgerly Peak N 58 W. *To Weir's Hill N 68 W. *To DeWolf marker N 64 W.(Note bearings are NOT necessarily from M) see the circled X below the “B” & “A” x 1/2 way down the bluffs below ‘benteens charge’ to the right of the ‘water carrier route’ for Curtis’s “summit lookout” point 2. 😂
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Post by herosrest on Jan 30, 2024 7:57:10 GMT -6
So, where was Ryan's hill? By the way, there is a haunting and somewhat ghostly image taken on the bluffs, which shows Hodgson's marker where it was originally set up by O.J. Sweet, which was 1890 wasn't it. I seem to remember that WMC had something of a hand in having markers placed in the valley although memory has gone foggy for now. I know that the McIntosh's marker was provided by the family, and I strongly suspect that his remains were removed from the river using a wagon or gatling gun carriage. Lt. Hodgson's marker was once erected along the edge of the bluff's above the Dewolf marker (adjacent to the wayside pullout) and was later relocated to its correct location. - John DoernerTwo headstones, one for Lt. McIntosh and the other for Dr. DeWolf, being erected on the Reno field, and that of Lieut. Porter being returned to the Post, and turned over to the Post Quartermaster, accounts for 249 headstones.” Capt. Sweet - May 15th, 1890. See Crow scout's accounts of battle for reference to this marker before it was relocated to the valley.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 30, 2024 8:03:19 GMT -6
I'm linking one of WMC's maps (I think) it looks like his pencil scrawl on it. . Thus we can journey back to see what he could and understand what and how he thought what he did. Remember that he knew nothing and actually less than nothing, once Godfrey started the mind bends. This was a huge file which I edited down in terms of size such as borders and the west and southern flanks and then compressed. I don't think this leaves any worthwhile data absent. Still = you never know. Source link which is a pain and HTML5 victim. Enjoy. Map of the Crow Indian Reservation 1910 DotIOoIF linkLittle Horn station is at bottom, below (south) of the mouth of Lodge Grass and Good Luck Creeks. Wow - Tullock Creek's Middle Fork.....................
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Post by johnson1941 on Jan 30, 2024 9:08:09 GMT -6
No one called it Ryan's Hill. You can see Camp for very specific data on SSH. Of course Donahue has his take, too. Digest his whole narrative with a grain of salt though. Ryan The company on the right of my company had a number of men killed in a few minutes. There was a high ridge on the right and an opening on the right of our lines, and one Indian in particular I must give credit for being a good shot.
Thanks for the map. Someone (with Camp I think) talked about how they relocated Hodgson body up to the corral after - made sense they put his stone up there. This guy nailed it!... Woah now... Geesh - no wonder there is n issue...in October you said/showed showed your Horizon Ridge was at Weir Peaks! UGHH! Stop renaming things, and worse then changing where/what you mean!! NO ONE THERE called anything "Horizon Ridge". NOT at Edgerly Peaks, and NOT the high ridge between Weir's Hill and SS where everyone crossed traveling the bluffs. The places are over 1/2mile apart. One is the farthest point D/Weir advanced to, the other is the high ridge the command, and D, crossed before moving right down south coulee. One is the place Weir saw the battlefield, the other where Martin said he saw Reno. One is where Vincent Charley was shot, the other the ridge the Weir advance retreated over just before Godfrey set up his skirmish at Reno retreat up. One per Martin, is about 1/2 mile north of reno, the other is about 1.2 miles. Its sort of like "3411" - no one there used a 1967 bench mark "3411" - they used "Weir's Hill" and "point 7" and "G". But at least by now we know what/where Fred meant though. "Martin's Ridge" is another term coined more recently by people here a bit ago apparently. (i.e. this thread). IF you want to refer to it by something else you made up (AFTER using that ID just months ago to refer to something else entirely), then PLEASE make sure people know what the heck you are talking about!! I got on the same ridge where General Custer saw the village the first time.
O n going back over that ridge I looked down into the bottom, and I saw Major Reno’s battalion was engaged. We kept on General Custer’s trail, and after we got on this ridge where I saw Major Reno fighting in the bottom.It was on a line leading from Major Reno’s position to the point “7” as I understand the map, because when I came back a little bit beyond our position on the hill I saw Major Reno’s column fighting. Q. that point from which you first saw Major Reno fighting? Was it further up the stream than where he made the stand or at the same place? A. About at the same place. Q. Then you would come back about three-quarters of a mile from where you left General Custer? A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. The highest hill, the very highest point around there. No, sir. The river was on the other side of the hill. The hill was in front of us.
The one and only "Martin's Ridge", adjacent to the highest hill/point 7/Weir's Hill/G/Custer Lookout, and SSH... Sure looks like Edgerly peaks to me.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 30, 2024 10:27:03 GMT -6
Horizon Ridge is precisely what the name states from where ever it is viewed except actually stood upon it. It forms the horizon whether looking from up or downriver and it is the 'highest hill' which both Walt and your goodself lack sufficient sense to comprehend. It is the horizon, not because it is the furthest terrain but because it provides the highest terrain. It is the highest hill for all and any undertaking normal business and not infatuated with interpretations of interpretations of opinons of quasi- factual mapping on an inaccurate map, made 31=32 months later, usinf succesive relations of the initial information made in courtroom where budgies were removed because they chirped too loudly. Best dribbled slowly over your pork and beans. Eaten faraway from home.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jan 30, 2024 10:36:35 GMT -6
SO this magical ridge of yours - is it at Weir Point, OR is it at Martins Ridge near/where Martin and Custer and the scouts etc actually 1st saw part of the village and Reno? It can not be both. I think you should pick one and stick with it - or just use the names in use for 100 years. Thanks!
As for "THE highest hill" see the RCOI and the scouts. AKA Weir's Hill/G/highest hill/Point 7/.5mile below Reno, right where the river is tight AND overlooking where DeWolf was killed AND about 500 yards from the head of South Coulee/point 8.
Weir's Hill was not the highest hill PER Camp - you made yet another mistake thinking he said it was. You do not need to rely on Camp if you don't want to. Your call....weird as it is.
Camp did however locate Weir's Hill exactly. Right where everyone says it was located. See Herendeen, DeRudio, Martin, Benteen and the scouts, and most maps.
Martin Q. Where did you see Major Reno fighting? A. I was up on the ridge and he was in the bottom. Q. Where was that point from which you first saw Major Reno fighting? Was it further up the stream than where he made the stand or at the same place?
A. About at the same place.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 30, 2024 10:44:52 GMT -6
Behold - Correspondence from Theodore Goldin to Col. Wm Graham, dated 09/19/1922, and published on p. 268 of Graham's book The Custer Myth.
14. After swinging off to the right, how far down the river did Custer's column go before he halted it to go up on the ridge with Martini?
Goldin: As I recall it, no halt was made, the column merely slowed down and Custer galloped over to the edge of the bluffs.
[Note: This occurred south of Reno and Benteen Hill] Custer made observation and raced back to catch up with and halt the advancing column, which had become unruly and boisterous. Some say (including Benteen) that a last hurrah was sounded and the companies galloped away again to 'cross the river and capture the camp'.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 30, 2024 10:46:31 GMT -6
I know it's difficult for you but Weip Point is a hill. A pointy hill and the highest one around. Horizon Ridge is a ridge (not a hill) and it is the highest Ridge. It really is.
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