shaw
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Posts: 187
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Post by shaw on Sept 3, 2015 14:33:55 GMT -6
Interesting reference to the Yalu. When I was in my last year of college (1967) I got to know a former CIA officer, a good friend of my father, who was gathering intel on the Chinese Army buildup on the Yalu in late 1950. He told me that MacArthur was repeatedly informed of the buildup and that he simply ignored the information. MacArthur was focused on getting approval to cross the Yalu and invade China.
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Post by fred on Sept 3, 2015 19:17:05 GMT -6
1. What evidence exists that indicates that the firing on Luce Ridge was at Indians in MTC? I see you reference the impact field in your book but it's unclear to me who discovered the bullets. 2. None of Custer's surviving officers surmised that military tactics would call upon Custer to move up Luce Ridge. Even Godfrey saw the trail but failed to recognize it for what it was. What do you think is the reason for their failure to recognize this? Michael, Sorry it has taken me so long to respond, but I have been working feverishly on another project, plus I got myself "temporarily" tied up in another silly debate elsewhere. To answer your questions... 1. The bullets on those ridges were discovered by Edward Luce, Joe Blummer, Colonel Elwood Nye, and R. G. Cartwright, during the 1920s and 1930s. Maybe even a little later (I do not have my notes in front of me). Their placement led these fellows (Luce was a former officer in the 7th Cavalry, a veterinary officer) to believe they were fired from a mounted skirmish line and the number of cartridge cases found indicated fairly serious firing. The three Crow scouts-- Hairy Moccasin, Goes Ahead, and White Man Runs Him-- claimed they saw the volleys being fired and John Stands In Timber alludes to soldiers firing from those positions at the Wolf Tooth/Big Foot band. Around this same time, Custer was pulling away from Ford B, so some of the firing was probably directed at covering that pullback. Also, Indians from the valley fight had been crossing the river and in all likelihood saw some of this downstream activity. The firing fan indicated by where the cartridge cases were found indicates some of the firing was directed at Indians coming down either Middle or West Coulee. 2. It is hard to say, because it is impossible to know what those officers thought was going on there at the time. If you did not know the situation regarding the presence or number of Indians or what was in Custer's mind, going up to Luce Ridge might make little sense. You wouldn't go up there if you were planning on crossing the river at Ford B, and I believe that was the prevailing theory at the time and for many years hence. Remember, we only know what we do because of the many Indian accounts gathered by Grinnel, Marquis, Camp, and others... including Margot Liberty. If Custer, however, had intended to keep moving north, he would naturally mount Luce and continue his move. He could see reason for that as he got closer to the river using MTC. Notice Custer did not mount the ridges immediately upon entering MTC, but moved down the coulee until he could see some more of the activity in the valley. When he realized much of the village was fleeing below Ford B, it no longer made any sense for him to cross there, so he mounted the ridge to get a better look; kept Keogh back as he and Yates moved closer to see even more; then moved north from there. The officers wouldn't have known any of this. We only know of it because of Indian accounts and archaeology. I hope this helps and again, my apologies for not checking in sooner. Very best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Sept 3, 2015 23:42:59 GMT -6
Hi Fred Their placement led these fellows (Luce was a former officer in the 7th Cavalry, a veterinary officer) they were fired from a mounted skirmish line and the number of cartridge cases found indicated fairly serious firing. Just in passing and not sounding facetious;how would you know that the firing was from mounted troopers ? Cheers
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Post by fred on Sept 4, 2015 5:44:32 GMT -6
... how would you know that the firing was from mounted troopers ? Wild, I believe-- and do not quote me here: I don't fully recall and have not bothered to look it up-- it had something to do with the interval between groupings. I may even have it in my own book or else in something like Where Custer Fell... again, I do not recall. I guess the intervals between mounted men are different from men on a dismounted skirmish line. Even if I am wrong, however, the intervals can determine whether it was a skirmish line or a fire drill. Good point, though, Wild. Keeps me on my toes. Hope you are well. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by mchlwilson on Sept 4, 2015 6:09:39 GMT -6
1. What evidence exists that indicates that the firing on Luce Ridge was at Indians in MTC? I see you reference the impact field in your book but it's unclear to me who discovered the bullets. 2. None of Custer's surviving officers surmised that military tactics would call upon Custer to move up Luce Ridge. Even Godfrey saw the trail but failed to recognize it for what it was. What do you think is the reason for their failure to recognize this? Michael, Sorry it has taken me so long to respond, but I have been working feverishly on another project, plus I got myself "temporarily" tied up in another silly debate elsewhere. To answer your questions... 1. The bullets on those ridges were discovered by Edward Luce, Joe Blummer, Colonel Elwood Nye, and R. G. Cartwright, during the 1920s and 1930s. Maybe even a little later (I do not have my notes in front of me). Their placement led these fellows (Luce was a former officer in the 7th Cavalry, a veterinary officer) to believe they were fired from a mounted skirmish line and the number of cartridge cases found indicated fairly serious firing. The three Crow scouts-- Hairy Moccasin, Goes Ahead, and White Man Runs Him-- claimed they saw the volleys being fired and John Stands In Timber alludes to soldiers firing from those positions at the Wolf Tooth/Big Foot band. Around this same time, Custer was pulling away from Ford B, so some of the firing was probably directed at covering that pullback. Also, Indians from the valley fight had been crossing the river and in all likelihood saw some of this downstream activity. The firing fan indicated by where the cartridge cases were found indicates some of the firing was directed at Indians coming down either Middle or West Coulee. 2. It is hard to say, because it is impossible to know what those officers thought was going on there at the time. If you did not know the situation regarding the presence or number of Indians or what was in Custer's mind, going up to Luce Ridge might make little sense. You wouldn't go up there if you were planning on crossing the river at Ford B, and I believe that was the prevailing theory at the time and for many years hence. Remember, we only know what we do because of the many Indian accounts gathered by Grinnel, Marquis, Camp, and others... including Margot Liberty. If Custer, however, had intended to keep moving north, he would naturally mount Luce and continue his move. He could see reason for that as he got closer to the river using MTC. Notice Custer did not mount the ridges immediately upon entering MTC, but moved down the coulee until he could see some more of the activity in the valley. When he realized much of the village was fleeing below Ford B, it no longer made any sense for him to cross there, so he mounted the ridge to get a better look; kept Keogh back as he and Yates moved closer to see even more; then moved north from there. The officers wouldn't have known any of this. We only know of it because of Indian accounts and archaeology. I hope this helps and again, my apologies for not checking in sooner. Very best wishes, Fred. Hi Fred, I am aware of the cartridge finds that began with Blummer and continued up to the Weibert era. My question is whether the bullets propelled from those cartridges were ever found in MTC. That's what I was asking you to clarify, In your book you make mention of a "firing fan" and I took that to mean the bullets had been found in MTC. Weibert claims to have found not only soldier cartridges but also Indian cartridges that indicate where they Indians were that the soldiers were firing at. He placed all this activity on the LNC complex and not in MTC. So what I'm trying to get at is whether anyone has ever found sn impact area in MTC that would indicate that firing from Luce impacted in MTC. Michael
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Post by fred on Sept 4, 2015 7:07:25 GMT -6
Michael,
Gotcha!
The simple answer is, no; but I do not know of anyone who has done any serious search of the MTC area. I believe I have all the archaeology books done by Scott and Fox and their crews, but nothing I have come up with shows any artifacts found in MTC. The firing fans indicate clearly that firing was done in that direction, but if you take measurements-- and I believe I mentioned this in the book, as well-- the distances reaching into MTC would have been too great to have any affect on Indians coming north through either Middle or West coulees. Plus, don't forget, the three Crow scouts were on the bluffs between the river and West Coulee and there is no report from them of any Indians. Of course, their route back was fairly circuitous-- and contradictory-- so you must believe it wasn't that uneventful. I believe the firing was directed primarily up MTC-- Wolf Tooth and Big Foot; and bullets were found there-- and to protect Custer's move up Deep Coulee. Also, don't forget those five or so Sioux who backed away from the advancing E Company troops in the coulee as Custer moved toward Ford B.
I kind of think, too, MTC is very much like Deep Ravine: a major watershed. You won't find much there because of 130+ years of run-off.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by mchlwilson on Sept 4, 2015 8:44:30 GMT -6
and bullets were found there Hi Fred - We are getting close! Who found them? Can the location of the find be plotted on a map or is it unknown? Michael
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Post by wild on Sept 4, 2015 9:05:48 GMT -6
Hi Fred It's not important but I dont think they would dress off horses for a mounted volley .And if it was a prolonged exercise it would surely be done on foot. Cheers
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Post by tubman13 on Sept 4, 2015 13:58:00 GMT -6
Wow, that's wild! However, I think you have something there.
Regards, Tom
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Post by fred on Sept 4, 2015 17:46:39 GMT -6
No... we are there. Items found by numerous people over the years. This does not include the artifacts found by Scott and Bleed in Deep Coulee. That is a whole separate thing. Along the front side of Butler Ridge which faces the LBH, were found: • Ten .45/55-caliber bullets • Four .45/55 cases • Two unfired .45/55 cartridges • Two Colt .45 bullets • One .50/70 cartridge • Three .44 Henry cases • Three .50 Spencer cases • Four brass cavalry insignia • One arrowhead • Two half horseshoes • One metal ring • Brass grommets • Iron snaps • One Winchester rifle In the north fork of MTC, below and along the south and southeast face of Luce Ridge, roughly parallel to East Ridge: • Four .45/55 cases • Three .50/70 cases • Fourteen .45/55 cases, plus an additional undetermined number • At least three horse skeletons, plus additional horse bones • At least three human skeletons, plus additional human bones • A saddle and bridle, saddle leather and pommel rings, and horseshoes • Much of this was probably from the battle with the southern half of Wolf Tooth’s band. In the lower ground, north and northwest of Butler Ridge, east of Deep Coulee: • Two .45/55 cartridges • A horseshoe, harness buckle, and straps • A leather boot • A leather scabbard • An arrowhead • Two human skeletons • Numerous horse bones On the southern slope of Nye-Cartwright Ridge, directly behind the LBH face of Butler Ridge: • Four .45/55 cases • Four .45/55 cartridges • Six .56 Spencer cases • Twenty-four .50/70 cases • Fifteen .44 Henry cases • Nine .44 Henry cartridges • An Indian bridle All along the Nye-Cartwright/Luce Ridge complex: • Upwards of 480 .45/55 cases and cartridges • Several .50/70 cases • An undetermined number of additional shells • Saddle and tack parts • Uniform buttons and buckles Behind Nye-Cartwright along a dry ravine of South Branch: • Three .44 Henry cases • This was probably from the skirmish with the northern half of Wolf Tooth’s band. Below the western edge of Nye-Cartwright, in what appear to be a series of gullies or ravines leading to, but before, Deep Coulee: • Three human and three horse skeletons • Various bridle and saddle parts Northern part of Deep Coulee on its west side, toward Calhoun Hill and the Henryville area: • Human bones and two horse skeletons • Eight .45/55 cases • Two .50/70 cases • Two .50- and one .56-caliber Spencer cases • One .32 rimfire case • Two .44 Henry cases • One Winchester rifle Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Sept 4, 2015 17:48:36 GMT -6
... I dont think they would dress off horses for a mounted volley .And if it was a prolonged exercise it would surely be done on foot. Richard, You could very well be correct; I have not dug into my notes-- I would imagine I would have recorded that sort of thing-- or the book(s) where it may be. Either way, I would not disagree with you. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Sept 5, 2015 2:10:21 GMT -6
Hi Fred The point itself is little more than nit picking ,what is important is that it gives the impression that we can deduce such detail from arifacts .
Speaking of artifacts that is an impressive list you posted . But it should come with a health warning ,All military equipment [not including ammo ] passed through Indian hands. They would have taken everything that could be used or traded.
Glad to see you back posting and participating on a regular basis. Cheers Richard
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Post by fred on Sept 5, 2015 6:46:46 GMT -6
The point itself is little more than nit picking ,what is important is that it gives the impression that we can deduce such detail from arifacts . Wild, This is an old note from my files, so it does not contain a source or even an explanation of sorts, but it is all I have right now: "Through an analysis of the letters Superintendent Edward S. Luce wrote describing the artifacts he and others found, Bruce Trinque concluded that Richard Fox’ “West Ridge” is the real Luce Ridge and it is this area—north to Nye-Cartwright—that the troops traversed. More than 100 cases were found by Luce, generally three to four yards apart, indicating dismounted skirmishers. As the trail of cases continued, the spacing changed to about nine yards indicating mounted skirmishing."I would assume-- always dangerous-- dis-mounted skirmishing intervals would be longer, five yards minimum... or shorter, under duress!!!!!!! as Reno's proved to be on the brow. In the meantime, I would believe Edward Luce since he was a veterinary officer in the 7th Cavalry. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by mchlwilson on Sept 6, 2015 18:08:15 GMT -6
No... we are there. Items found by numerous people over the years. This does not include the artifacts found by Scott and Bleed in Deep Coulee. That is a whole separate thing. Along the front side of Butler Ridge which faces the LBH, were found: • Ten .45/55-caliber bullets • Four .45/55 cases • Two unfired .45/55 cartridges • Two Colt .45 bullets • One .50/70 cartridge • Three .44 Henry cases • Three .50 Spencer cases • Four brass cavalry insignia • One arrowhead • Two half horseshoes • One metal ring • Brass grommets • Iron snaps • One Winchester rifle In the north fork of MTC, below and along the south and southeast face of Luce Ridge, roughly parallel to East Ridge: • Four .45/55 cases • Three .50/70 cases • Fourteen .45/55 cases, plus an additional undetermined number • At least three horse skeletons, plus additional horse bones • At least three human skeletons, plus additional human bones • A saddle and bridle, saddle leather and pommel rings, and horseshoes • Much of this was probably from the battle with the southern half of Wolf Tooth’s band. In the lower ground, north and northwest of Butler Ridge, east of Deep Coulee: • Two .45/55 cartridges • A horseshoe, harness buckle, and straps • A leather boot • A leather scabbard • An arrowhead • Two human skeletons • Numerous horse bones On the southern slope of Nye-Cartwright Ridge, directly behind the LBH face of Butler Ridge: • Four .45/55 cases • Four .45/55 cartridges • Six .56 Spencer cases • Twenty-four .50/70 cases • Fifteen .44 Henry cases • Nine .44 Henry cartridges • An Indian bridle All along the Nye-Cartwright/Luce Ridge complex: • Upwards of 480 .45/55 cases and cartridges • Several .50/70 cases • An undetermined number of additional shells • Saddle and tack parts • Uniform buttons and buckles Behind Nye-Cartwright along a dry ravine of South Branch: • Three .44 Henry cases • This was probably from the skirmish with the northern half of Wolf Tooth’s band. Below the western edge of Nye-Cartwright, in what appear to be a series of gullies or ravines leading to, but before, Deep Coulee: • Three human and three horse skeletons • Various bridle and saddle parts Northern part of Deep Coulee on its west side, toward Calhoun Hill and the Henryville area: • Human bones and two horse skeletons • Eight .45/55 cases • Two .50/70 cases • Two .50- and one .56-caliber Spencer cases • One .32 rimfire case • Two .44 Henry cases • One Winchester rifle Best wishes, Fred. Fred, This is certainly an impressive list of artifacts found. However, I am trying to substantiate the claim that the volleys fired on Luce were at targets in upper MTC. I was asking if there is evidence of an impact field of bullets in upper MTC that could be tied to the skirmish line of cartridges found on Luce, in the way Fox tied an impact field in the flats to Cemetary Ridge. It appears from this list that no such impact field has been found. This makes me think that the firing on Luce was not at Indians in upper MTC coulée but at Indians on the LNC complex; my thesis being that Custer intended to cross at Ford B but was drawn into a fight on LNC with the bands mentioned by JSIT. Thanks for your patience. Michael
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Post by fred on Sept 6, 2015 18:25:05 GMT -6
Michael,
The second point: the north fork of MTC, is what I believe you are looking for.
Best wishes, Fred.
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