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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 11, 2015 4:29:57 GMT -6
Hi everyone; bit of a strange one this but here goes.
If Custer decided to defend the area around cemetery hill then what would be his motives? To halt the influx of Indians from deep ravine seems a logical one but why? He had only two understrength companies and if Crazy Horse had already charged through the area then it was like closing the gate after the horse had bolted.
One notion that springs to mind was Custer’s obligation to protect Keogh’s rear, he knew that Keogh was over the ridge line and any move by the Indians in that direction would catch his battalion from the rear, so if he did arrive at cemetery and saw groups of warriors heading that way then he would be compelled to engage them.
At the end of the day I cannot find any other reason to hang about the place with around 80+ men when the rump of his group was over the hill fighting, but I still think that Custer saw that Keogh was in danger, as the chances of that basin area being clear of Indians is nil, if CH had been through the area then more would be coming behind him and I wouldn’t be surprised if Custer saw that he was already being cut off from the south.
Ian.
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Post by tubman13 on Jun 11, 2015 5:24:45 GMT -6
Ian,
Was Custer completely cut off from the south when he first arrived at cemetery hill? Was he attempting to close an expected back door? Was he confounded and having that " where did all these Indians come from" moment? It really does not matter, he was buttered toast after he turned north from Ford B. He just went looking for the jam to complete the meal.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Jun 11, 2015 5:48:33 GMT -6
In all probability Custer was effectively cut off from Keogh before he got to Ford D. He probably realized he was cut off upon returning the Cemetery Ridge. Cur off does not necessarily mean end of story. It only means something in between. In all probability Custer thought he could control the problem be cutting off the flow into deep ravine, when the reality was that move was already too late and the damage done. His proper course was to return to Keogh, and he chose badly.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 11, 2015 6:24:58 GMT -6
Thanks you two, I really just wanted to shed some light (again) on this area of the battle, if you were not fully engaged and not cut off then you could re-join your battalions, if however you are hotly engaged and compelled to fight, then this wouldn't this suggest that you are cut off and any chance of a re-unite has gone.
I cannot see any reason to hang about cemetery if there is a clear channel to Keogh and you are still mounted with room to move.
Tom I feel that the time to close that back door had well and truly gone, if Keogh was being chopped up by Crazy Horse and his band, then there could be a chance that over 200 mounted Indians had just passed between the two battalions.
Ian.
Ian.
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Post by tubman13 on Jun 11, 2015 6:47:23 GMT -6
Ian,
I have often wondered if Custer had taken all but 1 company with him. Leaving that one in place to lookout for Benteen and given the option to either rejoin Custer or return south to collect Benteen and MacDougall, if things got dicey. I doubt the outcome would be different, the markers would just be located elsewhere.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 11, 2015 6:58:16 GMT -6
Tom I suggested a similar proposition a few years back with E Company remaining on the northern slope or cemetery hill as a fall back or stepping stone position while GAC/F Company went north.
The prospect of leaving your largest Company (L) behind to wait for re-enforcements would be an option if Custer had one, but as you said the main body didn't get far, but was it you who suggested that Keogh (I) could have been the lead Company retuning south when they ran into the fleeing survivors from L?
C Company would have had to come from a different direction entirely.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 11, 2015 7:06:27 GMT -6
Good and bad decision making can only be determined after the fact in hindsight.
Generally speaking if it works it was good, and if it does not it was bad.
Two separate bad decisions were made after three even worse decisions had already taken place.
WORSE:
1) Moving onto the bluffs.
2) Moving down to Ford B.
3) Separating, one battalion staying in the Calhoun Hill area, and the other moving north.
BAD BECAUSE OF WORSE:
1) Keogh not retaining his mobility, and moving away when he still had the chance.
2) Custer, first not maintaining contact with Keogh's situation by utilization of connecting files, and then not retaining his mobility and moving away., while he still had the chance.
OR
You could have a thorough grounding in tactics, the Principles of War tactics are based upon, and a fairly good working knowledge of the TTP in effect in that day, any of which would have thrown up red flags in the present the here and now, that none of these actions taken were such a hot idea.
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Post by Beth on Jun 11, 2015 8:10:29 GMT -6
Ian, I have often wondered if Custer had taken all but 1 company with him. Leaving that one in place to lookout for Benteen and given the option to either rejoin Custer or return south to collect Benteen and MacDougall, if things got dicey. I doubt the outcome would be different, the markers would just be located elsewhere. Regards, Tom Is leaving someone behind to make contact the standard way a regiment would have operated? Beth
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Post by jodak on Jun 11, 2015 8:23:01 GMT -6
My thoughts are that Custer probably didn't leave anyone behind as much as he took part of the command and went forward. Having realized that the village was too large to tackle with the forces currently with him and having sent for Benteen, he chose to do something productive while awaiting Benteen's arrival and scout to the north to see what opportunities might be present in that direction but always intending to return to Keogh's location to collect him (and Benteen?) before initiating action.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 11, 2015 8:33:30 GMT -6
Maintaining contact is a function of command and control.
Battles are lost in seconds or minutes. In seconds the decision made in haste without thinking through the possible consequences, and in minutes where even the correct decision made a minute or two too late, may be no good solution.
When Humpty Dumpty first climbed on the wall, he made a bad decision. There are some bad decisions that cannot be rectified. Staying or going, thising or thating can never nullify a bad decision once made. It can only mitigate the consequences of the decision.
For instance, Custer lost the battle when he turned onto the bluffs. He didn't know it yet. He lost because he had surrendered the initiative to the enemy. He found that out, I think, at 3411, but regardless if he did or did not, he had still lost the initiative, and everything he did after was a reaction. You don't when battles by reacting. His proper course of reaction was to return to Ford A, and move north in the valley to support Reno. That would not regain the initiative though. He had already lost the battle. It was up to him then to find a way to regain the initiative, and fight a battle anew.
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Post by tubman13 on Jun 11, 2015 8:34:32 GMT -6
Tom I suggested a similar proposition a few years back with E Company remaining on the northern slope or cemetery hill as a fall back or stepping stone position while GAC/F Company went north. The prospect of leaving your largest Company (L) behind to wait for re-enforcements would be an option if Custer had one, but as you said the main body didn't get far, but was it you who suggested that Keogh (I) could have been the lead Company retuning south when they ran into the fleeing survivors from L? C Company would have had to come from a different direction entirely. Ian. Good memory, guilty as charged. Somewhat garnered from Tori's dad's book. I was referring to a question about his book.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Beth on Jun 11, 2015 8:51:02 GMT -6
I know we can't tell what was going on in Custer's mind but wouldn't the sounder way have been to send out a number of scouts to check on Cemetery Ridge and beyond while Custer stayed with Keogh? I wonder if part of the reason Custer had to check it out himself because he just didn't trust anyone to do the job better than himself or possibly he just needed to be in motion.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 11, 2015 8:52:36 GMT -6
Ian all the whiffing in the world cannot mitigate or change a bad decision into a good one.
It does not matter if he left this company in place of that one, left only one company and moved with four, or any version of either. It is useless mind activity, where there is no correcting answer or solution. Therefore any suggestion that does not change the basic situation that existed in that portion of the battle space is to no avail. Strongest or weakest, one man, one company, none of it changes outcomes. Concentrate on the changing of outcomes, and there is only two possible things that could change the historical outcome, NOT GOING THERE or GETTING WHILE THE GETTING WAS GOOD.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 11, 2015 8:58:29 GMT -6
Chuck, I have been trying to say that all day, how the hell was he oblivious to what was going down over the ridge line, there must have been one hell of a show taking place over that hill with around 120+ men fighting for their lives against hundreds of Indians and he decides to deploy his scant resources in an effort to what!
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 11, 2015 9:18:51 GMT -6
Simple. He did not see them. He only saw Indians going toward Keogh and made the wrong decision on how to address the issue.
Keogh was in all probability toast, by his own hand, by the time Custer detected the flow in Deep Ravine.
I am oblivious to what is happening a mile away from my workshop where I type this. Hearing firing in the distance gives Custer no indication that Keogh is in trouble, only that firing was being herd, and Custer probably expected that. Seeing Indians coming across the river out of Ford C/Deep Ravine did not tell him Keogh's situation either. It only told Custer that if he did not do something Keogh would be in trouble. He made a bad decision based upon incomplete knowledge, and putting himself in a place to not have complete knowledge was a bad decision in and of itself.
People see and hear what they expect to see and hear. You do, I do, all God's children do, UNLESS, they are drawn somehow to the fact that what they are seeing or hearing is not what they expect. Sitting in my workshop with the window open I expect to hear the occasional dog bark, traffic out on the boulevard, and perhaps being summer vacation from school the sound of children playing. If I saw heavy smoke in the distance, or the sound of gunfire nearby, that would not be expected and it would quickly draw my attention.
Things done and left undone, actions taken and actions not taken, knowledge and lack of knowledge, all have consequences Ian.
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