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Post by quincannon on Apr 21, 2015 15:51:15 GMT -6
I am going to leave that one alone, as it is not my practice or intent to pick on those mentally infirm. Thugery does have its limits.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 21, 2015 15:53:05 GMT -6
Ducemus
There are historical evidences of rare organised militaryness, when gathered in numbers in common purpose, and the extremely rare incident where SB organised destruction of the 31 Crows who held a strong defensive position. That involved immense coercion in camp fire discussion and leadership by example. Interestingly, it was Crazy Horse who tried to kill Reno in the timber and hit BK. Crazy Horse Snr - (Waglula) by some accounts. It can be argued with different evidence that he was then pushing up daisies but hell, this is LBH. Every hostile who fought Reno Hill crossed Ford D to get there.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 21, 2015 16:09:16 GMT -6
Ducemus
I don't have a prepared script or preconception but offer an interesting military 'problem'. Take what you have and know and overcome the seven companies on Reno Hill. Pure speculation and developing theory.
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shaw
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Post by shaw on Apr 21, 2015 16:11:29 GMT -6
If the NA's had no command and control then how do you explain the Battle of the Rosebud? The Indians ride at night. A thousand of them. The next day they strike Crook's command and fight him to a tactical draw and a strategic defeat ( he withdraws ). Yeah, the battle is indian style. Light cavalry punching and withdrawing. It may not be our definition of command and control, but at Rosebud and the LBH the NA's had it. If they hadn't, Custer might have gotten away with his myopic tactics.
We tend to think in boxes.
If the NA's had wanted to take Reno Hill, I believe they would have been successful. Their casualties would have been unacceptable.
If they had massed warriors on sharpshooters ridge they could have brought a rain of arrows and bullets down on Reno Hill. Meanwhile the indians could have bobbed and weaved using the broken up ground to get closer and closer to Reno's position until at last they attempt to rush the position and overrun the cavalry. It might have failed but that's how I would have done it.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 21, 2015 16:37:29 GMT -6
I think it would be a grave error to think that the Indians had no C&C. It would not be up to western standards, but it did exist at some level. I also believe they had planning skills, adequate for their requirement, but unsophisticated.
The Rosebud was a tactical draw and an operational defeat, not strategic.
I disagree that the Indians could have taken Reno Hill, but agree that the casualties sustained would have been catastrophic by their standards. You are thinking skirmish line, and I (and they) are thinking line of battle under those circumstances.
Have you ever tried to shoot an arrow at a range of 400 meters Shaw? I think you just might fall short by a couple of hundred meters. If they could apply suppressive fire with rifles from Sharpshooter Ridge why didn't they?
Indians, despite popular myth, were not light or any other kind of cavalry. They were men who rode horses. There is a difference, quite a difference.
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Post by Beth on Apr 21, 2015 16:38:28 GMT -6
If the NA's had no command and control then how do you explain the Battle of the Rosebud? The Indians ride at night. A thousand of them. The next day they strike Crook's command and fight him to a tactical draw and a strategic defeat ( he withdraws ). Yeah, the battle is indian style. Light cavalry punching and withdrawing. It may not be our definition of command and control, but at Rosebud and the LBH the NA's had it. If they hadn't, Custer might have gotten away with his myopic tactics. We tend to think in boxes. If the NA's had wanted to take Reno Hill, I believe they would have been successful. Their casualties would have been unacceptable. If they had massed warriors on sharpshooters ridge they could have brought a rain of arrows and bullets down on Reno Hill. Meanwhile the indians could have bobbed and weaved using the broken up ground to get closer and closer to Reno's position until at last they attempt to rush the position and overrun the cavalry. It might have failed but that's how I would have done it. They didn't have the same type of command and control as the US Army, but it doesn't mean that there wasn't the ability to function under the command and control of a leader. History is full of raids and battles that prove the point. Beth |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 17:10:00 GMT -6
If the NA's had no command and control then how do you explain the Battle of the Rosebud? The Indians ride at night. A thousand of them. The next day they strike Crook's command and fight him to a tactical draw and a strategic defeat ( he withdraws ). Yeah, the battle is indian style. Light cavalry punching and withdrawing. It may not be our definition of command and control, but at Rosebud and the LBH the NA's had it. If they hadn't, Custer might have gotten away with his myopic tactics. We tend to think in boxes. If the NA's had wanted to take Reno Hill, I believe they would have been successful. Their casualties would have been unacceptable. If they had massed warriors on sharpshooters ridge they could have brought a rain of arrows and bullets down on Reno Hill. Meanwhile the indians could have bobbed and weaved using the broken up ground to get closer and closer to Reno's position until at last they attempt to rush the position and overrun the cavalry. It might have failed but that's how I would have done it. I disagree that the NAs had any form of C&C. No orders were given, command, and they certainly had no control. It was more follow the leader if you so desired. Each Indian was free to do as they pleased. Agree. The NAs could have taken Reno Hill if they so desired. Casualties would have been a concern so they never really pressed the issue. LSH was victory enough and those on Reno Hill didn't threaten the village. The scenario you paint seems very plausible. Heavy covering fire while they encroach in numbers. Once the line was breached, the whole command would have crumbled. Regards Mark |
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Post by herosrest on Apr 21, 2015 17:40:28 GMT -6
Ducemus
Thank you. A feeling that the prospect of losses negated any serious effort at assault and brought attempt at siege.
The charges or counters directed by Benteen, there is doubt that he accompanied his men, may have been to drive back hostiles far enough to prevent attacks with arrows.
So how would you, as Many Scalps, recommend an attack?
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Post by herosrest on Apr 21, 2015 18:20:50 GMT -6
DucemusI've the seed of an idea. Deception and shock of the lightning. I'll work it through on the terrain while I pray for Rain,,,,,,,,,, .  Large JD and Pepsi please! www.youtube.com/watch?v=87IQhui_Yy8Has anyone got 'Bullet Proof's phone number?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 18:39:13 GMT -6
DucemusI've the seed of an idea. Deception and shock of the lightning. I'll work it through on the terrain while I pray for Rain,,,,,,,,,, . Large JD and Pepsi please! www.youtube.com/watch?v=87IQhui_Yy8Has anyone got 'Bullet Proof's phone number? Good band. Why not attack the night of the 25th? Use darkness, play on their fear, don't allow the 7th to consolidate, get water etc... |
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Post by herosrest on Apr 21, 2015 20:26:36 GMT -6
DucemusSimple logic. Attack by creeping up the ravines from river side into McDougall, French or Benteen's lines. Lovely idea. Night fights go chaotic very quickly - don't know how cavalry fire discipline would hold up, or whether the troops would hold their rifle pits. Pretty scary for both sides on what were moonless nights and the reason why hostiles didn't fight at night. Sneak in and steal the horses without detection, they would but an all out assault was as unheard of as cavalry attacking a camp at mid-day.Without any idea of the structure of the position, a hostile attack would simply end in confusion and bravado. Benteen loved to counter attack. Right up his street. They simply would not launch a night attack, in my view. I may be wrong but that was actually the army's tactic, and successful it was. Custer was planning one for LBH but he was spooked. Reno put pickets out so movement would have been detected and challenged. Anyway, you (Many Scalps) are sat around SB's council in the village in the middle of that night, with a lot of very tired and excited/exhausted warriors snoring loudly to be up at 2am again, to go to the hill and shoot ships out of the soldiers. I believe that Trumpeter Martin go it started by blowing Revellie. Nice one Marcus. Cavalry attack at night , pre-dawn. They were ready for that! You could get in close and loose off an awful lot of (silent) arrows at gunflash.............. hmmm.......... 
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Post by dave on Apr 21, 2015 20:47:29 GMT -6
My statement about the lack of Command and Control of the indians was prompted by the what if posed by HR below;
You are 'Many Scalps'. A mean 28 year old hostile veteran of the Plains and leader of a band of some 80 or so Bad Hearts who are the white mans' nightmare.
Fighting of the 25th has closed and you are gathered with other lieutenants at Council, where Sittting Bull makes it clear that Little Custer, Reno on the hill, must die tomorrow, the 7th Cavalry are to be rubbed out, You put your plan to Crazy Horse and it is accepted,
What is your plan to wipe out Reno and minimise the loss of your own men?
Feel free. and have a go, Post your theory
I believe it was not within the abilities of the indians to plan an attack as suggested by HR.
I gather I was wrong from the responses, so I will apologize to HR.
Regards
Dave
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shaw
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Post by shaw on Apr 21, 2015 21:55:06 GMT -6
Dave
Thanks for the clarification.
I'm winging it here. I admit that.
Shaw
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 22, 2015 5:09:41 GMT -6
Sorry HR I cannot follow your cryptic posts, you sound like a character from a Roald Dahl book, and those graphics man, they give me a headache.
Ian.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 22, 2015 15:29:30 GMT -6
No apology necessary, blunt is good. Open mind as well. Most don't think mine is - they be wrong but like many here.......... Be well The idea is to utilise the warrior abilities and develop a solution. Basically, present a sure thing that gets their hands around troopers throats through a barrage of 45/55's. Get them in close and in safety. DucemusHope you weren't scalped recently  |
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