|
Post by quincannon on Apr 13, 2015 6:59:40 GMT -6
Yes that is how it is done by the book. Yes the LOOK would retire under cover from the CLOSE COVER. There may be no need to move by bounds, but that would be done if necessary. At Ford B what probably happened is that Company F (Close cover) covered the initial withdrawal, and then moved back with E on a single bound to the Calhoun Hill vicinity. Meanwhile Keogh's battalion remains in lace just in case until they are clear, and then moved northward to join Custer in that same vicinity, arriving after Custer. The then split again leaving Keogh for DEEP Cover again and taking E and F to Ford D or thereabouts.
Working another military funeral this morning. Check back in late afternoon.
|
|
|
Post by mac on Apr 14, 2015 6:31:21 GMT -6
The meeting at Calhoun may then be brief given Custer's desire to move quickly and Keogh's approach is from the south/south east after Custer. So Keogh will possibly not notice the gap or its importance immediately. Is it possible his initial disposition of companies does not include the gap and that it is a late discovery? In this case there is a timing issue of his maneuvers on Calhoun and the attacks from Lame White Man and Crazy Horse. I am not sure if this takes us anywhere, just thinking out loud. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 14, 2015 8:29:26 GMT -6
Those things not deemed impossible Mac, are always possible. What you suggest is no exception. All we can do is look and deduce from what little we see.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Apr 14, 2015 16:33:14 GMT -6
The meeting at Calhoun may then be brief given Custer's desire to move quickly and Keogh's approach is from the south/south east after Custer. So Keogh will possibly not notice the gap or its importance immediately. Is it possible his initial disposition of companies does not include the gap and that it is a late discovery? In this case there is a timing issue of his maneuvers on Calhoun and the attacks from Lame White Man and Crazy Horse. I am not sure if this takes us anywhere, just thinking out loud. Cheers I wonder the same thing myself but I need more information. If one assumes that Keogh noticed the gap before he started this dispostions of the companies, would he have done differently? Would they have spread people out differently? Would he have spread people even thinner? Beth
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 14, 2015 21:14:00 GMT -6
The way the markers are arrayed it seems that Company I was east of the gap facing west. Were they moving to counter someone coming through that gap I would think they would be south of it facing north. You must account for those of Keogh found on LSH. That too argues for an initial south to north line, oriented west.
Freddie (the Great) says he who defends everything, defends nothing. Many hear, but do not listen.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Apr 14, 2015 21:41:51 GMT -6
The way the markers are arrayed it seems that Company I was east of the gap facing west. Were they moving to counter someone coming through that gap I would think they would be south of it facing north. You must account for those of Keogh found on LSH. That too argues for an initial south to north line, oriented west. Freddie (the Great) says he who defends everything, defends nothing. Many hear, but do not listen. The problem with going by markers is we don't know where everyone started and then moved to. We are only looking at where bodies ended up after the chaos of the battle and everything that followed. Then give us a general idea but not the details one needs. It's like trying to put a puzzle together after someone has hacked all the pieces up, tore off the pictures and take away an unknown number pieces. Beth
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 15, 2015 4:12:52 GMT -6
But wouldn’t Company I have gone to the aid of Company C? That’s why I think that Keogh's own Company was either engaged before C Company left the ridge or during its mission.
We could also have a case here with Keogh’s command system, if he and his striker acted independently then this would leave two out of the three Companies under his command with only one officer, which wouldn’t be that much of an issue because the two Companies in question only contained 37-38 men (unless the two couriers sent by Reno re-joined their Company then that may take Company I to 40).
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 15, 2015 4:29:45 GMT -6
Company I was 500 yards away from where Company C departed from Ian. They probably did not even that C had left or were in trouble.
No Beth you cannot tell where they started. But you can make some conclusions based upon the markers where they didn't start from.
I keep saying these guys were not very good Ian, and you insist that they did the rational reasonable thing, when nothing that happened after 3411 suggests sound judgment and reason was present. Keogh had no command system. He was trying to command his company when his responsibility was to command the battalion. Game counters don't do stupid Ian. Men do.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 15, 2015 4:37:30 GMT -6
Well Chuck you could right, Keogh was found dead with his own NCOs, but what I was saying was that if you look at the other battalions, Benteen detached himself and acted independently, Reno formed a small HQ of himself, Hodgeson and one of the surgeons, if Keogh had been given the role of battalion commander for that day then he should have followed Benteen and Reno and kept himself independent.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 15, 2015 4:47:17 GMT -6
What people should do and what they do is often different. When that do do contributes to the death of 120 soldiers we call do do stupid. They were not very good Ian. When people are not very good, we can't expect much good to come from what they do.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Apr 15, 2015 5:13:16 GMT -6
Well Chuck you could right, Keogh was found dead with his own NCOs, but what I was saying was that if you look at the other battalions, Benteen detached himself and acted independently, Reno formed a small HQ of himself, Hodgeson and one of the surgeons, if Keogh had been given the role of battalion commander for that day then he should have followed Benteen and Reno and kept himself independent. Ian. I have always wondered why so many people would be gathered around Keogh at the end. I know there is a popular image of them rallying around an injured comrade but it just doesn't make sense. Is it more likely they just the ones who couldn't escape and became the last stand of that engagement? Beth
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 15, 2015 5:18:43 GMT -6
Nothing more than an automatic human reaction in time of danger. That's all.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Apr 15, 2015 5:31:58 GMT -6
Nothing more than an automatic human reaction in time of danger. That's all. True, but who was commanding the men? or by that time was there no one left to command? Beth
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 15, 2015 6:02:11 GMT -6
I wonder if Yates would have been a better choice to command the larger three companied battalion, they could replace I Company with F, I know that Keogh got his promotion a year before Yates but that doesn’t necessarily make him the better field commander.
Beth, I am sure that one of those NCOs that died in a group around Keogh was the C Company 1st Sergeant, so it was not exclusively I Company NCOs, I would think that once Harrington, Calhoun and Crittenden went down, that all command and control would have gone out of the window as that leaves only Porter in charge (if Keogh was down too).
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by mac on Apr 15, 2015 7:17:33 GMT -6
The way the markers are arrayed it seems that Company I was east of the gap facing west. Were they moving to counter someone coming through that gap I would think they would be south of it facing north. You must account for those of Keogh found on LSH. That too argues for an initial south to north line, oriented west. Freddie (the Great) says he who defends everything, defends nothing. Many hear, but do not listen. It looks to me like they were on the east side and were on both sides of the gap with Porter to the north. My assumption is that they had moved to try to keep the ridge line "open" so that they could move north to Custer. My earlier proposal is that originally I were closer to C and L and when the gap further up the ridge was detected Keogh sent Porter and I to defend it. I need to think more so I will sleep on it. More later. Cheers
|
|