|
Post by quincannon on Apr 11, 2015 12:59:08 GMT -6
Custer reconnoitered Ford D by the book Beth. The only question in my mind is why he left Keogh so far back, and that answer could be contained in the first two of my concerns above. Either Keogh had an additional mission appended to his deep cover, that being act as a connector to Benteen, or Custer miscalculated the distance to the two upper fords C and D. Having just transited that terrain I think a miscalculation of distance might just be the answer, for he must have known Benteen would not be coming any time soon, but it could have been either of them.
KMAG = I disagree Good by.
I don't know what volley Fred is talking about or if it was a real volley or just some firing or just what.
Keogh, if he used volley fire in the way volley fire is defined, then it was most probably on the L-N-C complex. I personally think all this talk of volley fire is nonsense. I see no place where it could be effectively used. I see a volley being fired from a skirmish line nearly impossible to control. Remember here that the average sized company in a skirmish line extended over a hundred yards in length, and that is pretty hard to control by voice by one man to achieve the desired effect (massed fire on a single group of targets). I would also think the range involved would be at such an extreme from L-N-C top either B or the bluffs as to be a waste of ammunition.
I think there was firing from L-N-C by some or all of Keogh, but suspect it was fired at will from skirmish order and directed at Wolf Tooth's band.
We are confronted with an old bugaboo here Beth. When is a volley not a volley? When some stupid SOB calls it one, when what they probably mean is they heard some firing.
I don't think Custer sent Keogh to battle ridge. I think Custer went to battle ridge (maybe not on it, and more probably behind it near where the right flank of Henryville would later be, and Keogh joined him there. At that point Custer directs Keogh ---- Go up there. I am going further on to find another ford. Cover me.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 11, 2015 13:08:17 GMT -6
Shaw: 1 or 2.
Colt: Spot on.
Ian: Keogh got hit sequentially. like dominoes falling. Colt has it correct, as to what could and should not have been done. Think about it> L is in skirmish order. C is most probably unengaged or they could not have moved into the coulee. I is sitting back where they were fat dumb and happy. C gets squashed. L changes front in response to what happened to C, L could possibly hold in one direction, but not two. They too get stomped on. Then they get to I still sitting there. All this because none of them could support their neighbors.
These guys were not very good. What does anyone expect, the Little Sisters of the Poor football team to play football like the NE Patriots. That notion is for nitwits and fan boys. Mistakes are made by the best of teams and the best of military units. That is to be expected. Only in instances of cruddy leadership though do you expect mistake whopperama.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Apr 11, 2015 13:16:07 GMT -6
This is totally out of the blue perhaps but could have Keogh been waiting for Benteen and Reno? What would Custer have expected Reno to do once he was routed? I'm trying to recall what Boston would have seen and relayed to Custer.
I am having trouble understanding exactly how things moved LNC with recon to Ford B back to LNC and then on to Battle Ridge? From Battle Ridge Custer places Keogh, then heads towards... Somewhere in there is cemetery ridge and Yates being sent to a low area close to LSH.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Apr 11, 2015 13:23:11 GMT -6
I understand that Custer did things by the book, but should he have gone to D himself? Should he have been a bit less by the book and more like I am the general I need to be in a place to see the most and send peons out to do my bidding?
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 11, 2015 13:32:25 GMT -6
If Boston informed Custer of what happened, then what transpired afterward is negligence at the criminal level. There is nothing to suggest that Boston informed Custer, because none of his movements thereafter betray having such knowledge. I don't think Fred agrees with that but, anyone is welcome to show me anything that refutes what I just said, show me how the movement pattern was altered.
SEQUENCE AND FLOW BETH: Custer moves with all five down Cedar, across MTC and on to L-N-C. They all move north along the L-N-C ridge line. Near the northern extremity of L-N-C, Custer take two companies and goes to Ford B, leaving Keogh on L-N-C. Custer either does not find what he is looking for at B , OR decides discretion is the better part of valor, OR, is repulsed. He moves up Deep Coulee to the vicinity of (probably behind) Calhoun Hill (the southern most portion of battle ridge). There he is joined by Keogh. Custer once again leaves Keogh and moves northward (Keogh occupies what we now call the Keogh sector). Custer goes past LSH and around the back side of Cemetery Ridge dropping off one company, and taking the second company closer. At this point they are west of Cemetery Ridge looking for or physically at Ford D (opinions differ). That must have been a no go for them as well, or soon became one. Custer is now confronted with Indians coming across at both C and D. He deploys and is pushed back to LSH by enemy action, getting chewed up in the process.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 11, 2015 13:38:10 GMT -6
Custer going or not going has nothing to do with going by the book. He did not need to go. He chose to go. A trusted subordinate could have seen anything Custer would have seen, and could have reported it to him.
Going by the book is in the formation used. LOOK-CLOSE COVER-DEEP COVER. That's what the book says to do. Look speaks for itself. Close cover is used to extract the lookers should it become necessary. Deep cover is the fall back to position, that can save your butt if you get into some real trouble that the close cover force cannot deal with alone.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Apr 11, 2015 14:01:47 GMT -6
If Boston informed Custer of what happened, then what transpired afterward is negligence at the criminal level. There is nothing to suggest that Boston informed Custer, because none of his movements thereafter betray having such knowledge. I don't think Fred agrees with that but, anyone is welcome to show me anything that refutes what I just said, show me how the movement pattern was altered. SEQUENCE AND FLOW BETH: Custer moves with all five down Cedar, across MTC and on to L-N-C. The all move north along the L-N-C ridge line. Near the northern extremity of L-N-C, Custer take two companies and goes to Ford B, leaving Keogh on L-N-C. Custer either does not find what he is looking for at B , OR decides discretion is the better part of valor, OR, is repulsed. He moves up Deep Coulee to the vicinity of (probably behind) Calhoun Hill (the southern most portion of battle ridge). There he is joined by Keogh. Custer once again leaves Keogh and moves northward (Keogh occupies what we now call the Keogh sector). Custer goes past LSH and around the back side of Cemetery Ridge dropping off one company, and taking the second company closer. At this point they are west of Cemetery Ridge looking for or physically at Ford D (opinions differ). That must have been a no go for them as well, or soon became one. Custer is now confronted with Indians coming across at both C and D. He deploys and is pushed back to LSH by enemy action, getting chewed up in the process. I agree that Custer doesn't act like he thought Reno was in trouble so it could be that: A. Boston didn't see anything so there was no information passed on B. Boston didn't understand what he saw so he passed on poor information C. Boston told what he saw and Custer didn't think it was important D. Boston told Custer, Custer knew Reno was in trouble but thought if he attacked at the other end of the battlefield it would take pressure off of Reno. E. Custer thought Benteen would aid Reno since he knew Benteen was coming. Of course the problem with E is then why would Keogh be placed to make contact with Benteen... On Sequence and flow. I am going to try to sit down with Kid 2 who does animations and see if she could make an elementary one for me. Unfortunately Kid 2 is at a sleep over--I suspect to avoid the pre Prom chaos that is about to desend on us in about an hour. Beth
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 11, 2015 15:34:28 GMT -6
The most likely is A.
1) I doubt if Martini passed him near enough to recognize him, and that recognition dawned on Martini as to who it was well after the battle. So the probability of them having a chit chat seems to me as very unlikely. A touch more of gild to the lily. There is also the possibility that Boston was with George before 3411. Not probable but possible. If so Boston would only know what George knew, if that. Boston passing Martini is a very romantic Victorian era drama, that those folks apparently loved.
2) Anyone riding a hundred or two or more yards east from the edge of those bluffs would not necessarily see anything, and I find it improbable to believe that they would see anything.
3) So far as we can tell by the way Custer moved he was expecting Benteen to arrive. Custer himself saw to it that Benteen could not arrive by stirring the pot at Ford B.
4) There is no indication that Custer was fully aware of the damage he caused himself, by what he did at Ford B, therefore he moved on to Fords C/D, leaving Keogh where he did, almost certainly confident of Benteen's eventual arrival.
5) So what we can conclude I think is that Custer did not know of Reno's troubles, expected Benteen to arrive, and had no earthly idea that Benteen would not arrive, not because he stopped to help Reno, but because Custer's actions at Ford B precluded it.
|
|
shaw
Full Member
Posts: 187
|
Post by shaw on Apr 11, 2015 20:01:20 GMT -6
I'm beginning to think that the "They Died With Their Boots On" last stand would have been easier on the historical psyche.
"We're sacrificing the regiment." Or words to that effect.
That's what the public wanted. The so called glorious last stand, not a series of tactical blunders.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Apr 11, 2015 20:15:39 GMT -6
I'm beginning to think that the "They Died With Their Boots On" last stand would have been easier on the historical psyche. "We're sacrificing the regiment." Or words to that effect. That's what the public wanted. The so called glorious last stand, not a series of tactical blunders. You are right. Death defending a noble cause is always better than a blunder. It has always been that way in history. It is like if there is going to be lives lost, it better be for something that is consider right or noble to justify the pain and lost. I don't think people would have volunteered for the Spanish American War if instead of "Remember the Maine" the battle rally was "We want to take Control of the Caribbean from Spain." Beth
|
|
|
Post by mac on Apr 12, 2015 3:55:41 GMT -6
Really good stuff QC. I agree in that I think it unlikely Boston saw anything or recognised what he may have seen.
Beth Many at LBH probably died a noble death. The problem is they did not need to and Benteen knew this. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 12, 2015 6:32:35 GMT -6
Ian: Keogh got hit sequentially. like dominoes falling. Colt has it correct, as to what could and should not have been done. Think about it> L is in skirmish order. C is most probably unengaged or they could not have moved into the coulee. I is sitting back where they were fat dumb and happy. C gets squashed. L changes front in response to what happened to C, L could possibly hold in one direction, but not two. They too get stomped on. Then they get to I still sitting there. All this because none of them could support their neighbors. Chuck; That’s how I have always seen it..but if Keogh did issue an order for Harrington to move off the ridge and sweep below then he must have been up near C companies position to first see any threat and then issue any orders, so I think that his own I company was dragged out of position between the time that C moved down the slope and get into trouble, Keogh could have been monitoring Cs progress when it came to his attention that a large band of Indians were moving up through that gap that Fred has mentioned, giving the Captain no alternative to lead his company and plug that gap, that leaves C to look after its self, so if I company were still mounted and not engage then Keogh would I think send them to help out L and C and not just “stand to” doing jack. Ian.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 12, 2015 8:14:44 GMT -6
Ian: Whatever happened, Keogh's place as a battalion commander was with and monitoring the activities of Company L, his engaged company. It is far from certain that Keogh ordered Company C to counterattack. Unless Company I was covering that gap, I don't see how the Indians could have been detected in time for anyone (primarily Company I to move there from nearer Calhoun Hill to stop them. The markers, as inaccurate as they are betray a push back into that swale area. My conclusion is that they were there covering and prior to detection, and Keogh was with them. He may have spent part of his time up with L or C, but we know he died with I. In this particular venue of analysis distance means something and tells a lot I'd wager.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Apr 12, 2015 12:59:06 GMT -6
Really good stuff QC. I agree in that I think it unlikely Boston saw anything or recognised what he may have seen. Beth Many at LBH probably died a noble death. The problem is they did not need to and Benteen knew this. Cheers I would never belittle the brave fighting or the noble deaths that went on on LBH. They sacrified their lives doing what their country (and in many cases adopted country) asked them to do.
|
|
|
Post by mac on Apr 13, 2015 5:50:09 GMT -6
Custer going or not going has nothing to do with going by the book. He did not need to go. He chose to go. A trusted subordinate could have seen anything Custer would have seen, and could have reported it to him. Going by the book is in the formation used. LOOK-CLOSE COVER-DEEP COVER. That's what the book says to do. Look speaks for itself. Close cover is used to extract the lookers should it become necessary. Deep cover is the fall back to position, that can save your butt if you get into some real trouble that the close cover force cannot deal with alone. Can we go with this for a bit please? This relates to arrival at Calhoun Hill. When Custer retires from Ford B the LOOK group presumably move back under cover from the CLOSE COVER. Do they then retire, in bounds if you will, with the last to move being the DEEP COVER which is Keogh? In this case Keogh arrives at Calhoun after Custer. Would this be the case? Cheers
|
|