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Post by quincannon on Apr 15, 2015 9:15:21 GMT -6
Mac, that is the way it appears to me as well. If Keogh sent Porter and Company I, which is certainly possible once that infiltration route was discovered, then we can still assume that Company I got in place before that infiltration route became critical, thus on the east facing west, with some of Company I north of the gap itself, and some south of it. That makes complete sense. All you have to do then is account for Keogh being there and not commanding the battalion.
Beth, men cluster together in time of danger. By the time this happens all thought of commanding in a conventional sense is gone.
Ian: You could trade Little Jack Horner for the Pied Piper, and they still were not very good. These people were one step above a mob as far as a military force goes. They had not trained as leaders, as individuals, and most importantly as units. Imagine your favorite Rugby team that had taken the field together only three times in eleven years, and in the intervals had grown soft, and lazy, and not practiced their skills. An army is all about functioning together, like a highly maintained, well oiled machine. Every part must work as it is designed to work, and must always be kept in top form. The glories of yesteryear will not win for you the battles of today and tomorrow. They just stunk, and there was only one guy responsible for the smell.
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Post by montrose on Apr 15, 2015 19:03:00 GMT -6
Wargaming Battle Ridge is not possible. No human player would screw up as badly as Keough. Even an Artificial Intelligence engine would refuse to do what Keough and Custer did. It is quite possible the Indians took more casualties from friendly fire than they did from US forces in the north. The US fought in the smallest elements possible, all far apart, and sequentially. Indians were fighting with odds of 6 to 10 to one. All of these fights lasted minutes. Outside of Calhoun, these fights were very short with maximum US and minimal Indian casualties.
It is possible the only Indian casualties against I company were friendly fire.
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Post by Beth on Apr 15, 2015 19:32:33 GMT -6
Were any other regiments that would have been able to do better than the 7th or were the 7th the best in a bad time for the military.
Was the major flaw of the whole campaign trying to bring all the 'hostiles' in at one time. In hindsight wouldn't have worked better to break up all three forces into smaller parts so they go round up all smaller groups of Indians and keep the rest on the move so they couldn't hunt and gather stores for winter. They could have held the captives in an encampment then move the mass back to the reservation for 'effect?'
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 20:04:58 GMT -6
Wargaming Battle Ridge is not possible. No human player would screw up as badly as Keough. Even an Artificial Intelligence engine would refuse to do what Keough and Custer did. It is quite possible the Indians took more casualties from friendly fire than they did from US forces in the north. The US fought in the smallest elements possible, all far apart, and sequentially. Indians were fighting with odds of 6 to 10 to one. All of these fights lasted minutes. Outside of Calhoun, these fights were very short with maximum US and minimal Indian casualties. It is possible the only Indian casualties against I company were friendly fire. Keogh, not Keough. Your summation is arrived at solely on hindsight. Not a luxury afforded Keogh or GAC. They didn't know Reno would ignore his orders, Benteen would sit out and free the majority of the NAs to attack them in force.
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shaw
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Post by shaw on Apr 15, 2015 23:32:22 GMT -6
Let's give some credit to the NA's. Keogh couldn't have done it alone. Custer got him started but the NA's were gap filling all day. They freaked out Reno, caught Calhoun and Keogh and wiped them out. Then wiped out Custer. It was there day.
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Post by Beth on Apr 16, 2015 1:25:23 GMT -6
Let's give some credit to the NA's. Keogh couldn't have done it alone. Custer got him started but the NA's were gap filling all day. They freaked out Reno, caught Calhoun and Keogh and wiped them out. Then wiped out Custer. It was there day. The NA were presented with the battle of their dreams and fought it well. Beth
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Post by montrose on Apr 16, 2015 1:41:23 GMT -6
Wargaming Battle Ridge is not possible. No human player would screw up as badly as Keough. Even an Artificial Intelligence engine would refuse to do what Keough and Custer did. It is quite possible the Indians took more casualties from friendly fire than they did from US forces in the north. The US fought in the smallest elements possible, all far apart, and sequentially. Indians were fighting with odds of 6 to 10 to one. All of these fights lasted minutes. Outside of Calhoun, these fights were very short with maximum US and minimal Indian casualties. It is possible the only Indian casualties against I company were friendly fire. Your summation is arrived at solely on hindsight. Not a luxury afforded Keogh or GAC. They didn't know Reno would ignore his orders, Benteen would sit out and free the majority of the NAs to attack them in force. Arrant nonsense.
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Post by mac on Apr 16, 2015 2:16:56 GMT -6
If Keogh sent Porter to guard the gap which I assume he had to do, he now has Porter 500 yards or so away. Keogh has to be two places at once it would seem and he happens to be with I when they are overwhelmed. Given his situation and the terrain he had been left with, what were his options? He cannot leave the gap open, can he move anywhere else and still fulfill the function Custer has asked of him which presumably involves holding Calhoun Hill? My first thought is hit the road and head to Custer, but are there other options? Cheers
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Post by Beth on Apr 16, 2015 3:00:13 GMT -6
I wonder if Keogh would have had time to head to Custer. I tend to think that things went from a light exchange of each side just testing each other to chaos so quickly that they were fighting for their lives before they could think of anything else. It seems like any way you look at it Keogh didn't have enough people to do the job that Custer wanted and Custer was too far away to see that he had left Keogh undermanned and in deep horse muffins.
Beth
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 16, 2015 3:42:01 GMT -6
The factors are there to see, this battalion should have only been holding this position on a temporary basis, the only thing in its favour was that it was high ground, so they should have never have got themselves fixed.
We have discussed the possibilities that they could have been extricating and to do this C Company was sweeping the area so that L Company could fall back, but maybe this maneuver was badly planned, which is easily done when you have no communications other than word of mouth or letter.
Again we have touched on the lack of training which would have hindered such a procedure, plus the terrain masked the enemy encroachment. So Keogh should have pulled out Calhoun and moved further north and kept his battalion mobile, to my way of thinking he should have conducted a more fluid defence with single Companies deployed to fire a couple of rounds or volleys and then re-mount and move.
An alternative is that Keogh could have thought that he could slug it out with the Indians, a bad choice in hindsight but this was 1876 and he may have held his enemy in contempt, which is a bad move.
Chuck, the reason the British army got such a reputation was through experience, they had a constant source of world wide trouble spots for officers and NCOs to learn their trade.
Ian.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 16, 2015 6:06:08 GMT -6
Wargaming Battle Ridge is not possible. No human player would screw up as badly as Keough. Even an Artificial Intelligence engine would refuse to do what Keough and Custer did. It is quite possible the Indians took more casualties from friendly fire than they did from US forces in the north. The US fought in the smallest elements possible, all far apart, and sequentially. Indians were fighting with odds of 6 to 10 to one. All of these fights lasted minutes. Outside of Calhoun, these fights were very short with maximum US and minimal Indian casualties. It is possible the only Indian casualties against I company were friendly fire. Keogh, not Keough. Your summation is arrived at solely on hindsight. Not a luxury afforded Keogh or GAC. They didn't know Reno would ignore his orders, Benteen would sit out and free the majority of the NAs to attack them in force. The perfect example of someone so ignorant of military ways that they don't know what they don't know. This leads to thinking that you must try something even if you know or should know it would not work. "Try to" is more important than results. For them blindly going into something or making the worst available decision is sufficient as long as they tried. Let's look at the uniformed statements. For example "Reno would ignore his orders' OK ignorant commenter how long from start to end does a charge last with companies in large village and no rallying point? I know you don't know or else you would not be ignorant. It's measured in minutes and in this case probably over and the battalion destroyed. Only an ignorant commenter would actually think that 3 companies on their own would be successful without the support from the whole unit. Which was promised. This is predictable and you don't need to try to see what happens. Benteen was left with the results of Custer's poor decision making. Ignorant commenters suggest that old tired "try to" and use Weir as an example of "try to". Weir never accomplished anything by riding out after watering or sitting on Weir Peaks. Who sent Benteen to the left? Who sent Reno into the valley starting the clock and committing the regiment? Who ordered Benteen to bring packs? If you believe that ammunition was important (I don't) and the desire of the note than who forgot to divide the ammunition up before sending Reno into the valley? Who scattered the regiment into small groups and fed them to Indians at different times. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by dave on Apr 16, 2015 13:43:32 GMT -6
I wonder if Keogh would have had time to head to Custer. I tend to think that things went from a light exchange of each side just testing each other to chaos so quickly that they were fighting for their lives before they could think of anything else. It seems like any way you look at it Keogh didn't have enough people to do the job that Custer wanted and Custer was too far away to see that he had left Keogh undermanned and in deep horse muffins. Beth Beth I believe Crazy Horse and his herd blitz Keogh before he had time to even think about going to Custer. As Fred told me Crazy Horse was going through Keogh and the Gap faster than rice through a goose. Reno and his actions had no bearing on Keogh's fate and Benteen could not have gotten to him this late in the day. Too many indians and not enough yanks (with apologies to Loretta) Regards Dave
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Post by Beth on Apr 16, 2015 14:58:58 GMT -6
The factors are there to see, this battalion should have only been holding this position on a temporary basis, the only thing in its favour was that it was high ground, so they should have never have got themselves fixed. We have discussed the possibilities that they could have been extricating and to do this C Company was sweeping the area so that L Company could fall back, but maybe this maneuver was badly planned, which is easily done when you have no communications other than word of mouth or letter. Again we have touched on the lack of training which would have hindered such a procedure, plus the terrain masked the enemy encroachment. So Keogh should have pulled out Calhoun and moved further north and kept his battalion mobile, to my way of thinking he should have conducted a more fluid defence with single Companies deployed to fire a couple of rounds or volleys and then re-mount and move. An alternative is that Keogh could have thought that he could slug it out with the Indians, a bad choice in hindsight but this was 1876 and he may have held his enemy in contempt, which is a bad move. Chuck, the reason the British army got such a reputation was through experience, they had a constant source of world wide trouble spots for officers and NCOs to learn their trade. Ian. I suspect that contempt for the enemy was huge factor in everything that happened at LBH. I think that the 'they will run' mindset probably was in effect until Keogh found all routes for escape were blocked. It kind of reminds me of a person sitting in his stalled car on a railroad track and waiting for the approaching express to stop. I think the only ones who quickly realized that 'this village' wasn't going to run were Reno and Benteen. Beth
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Post by welshofficer on Apr 16, 2015 15:36:29 GMT -6
Your summation is arrived at solely on hindsight. Not a luxury afforded Keogh or GAC. They didn't know Reno would ignore his orders, Benteen would sit out and free the majority of the NAs to attack them in force. Arrant nonsense. Will,
Succinct and to the point, as ever.
WO
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shaw
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Post by shaw on Apr 16, 2015 15:51:15 GMT -6
The factors are there to see, this battalion should have only been holding this position on a temporary basis, the only thing in its favour was that it was high ground, so they should have never have got themselves fixed. We have discussed the possibilities that they could have been extricating and to do this C Company was sweeping the area so that L Company could fall back, but maybe this maneuver was badly planned, which is easily done when you have no communications other than word of mouth or letter. Again we have touched on the lack of training which would have hindered such a procedure, plus the terrain masked the enemy encroachment. So Keogh should have pulled out Calhoun and moved further north and kept his battalion mobile, to my way of thinking he should have conducted a more fluid defence with single Companies deployed to fire a couple of rounds or volleys and then re-mount and move. An alternative is that Keogh could have thought that he could slug it out with the Indians, a bad choice in hindsight but this was 1876 and he may have held his enemy in contempt, which is a bad move. Chuck, the reason the British army got such a reputation was through experience, they had a constant source of world wide trouble spots for officers and NCOs to learn their trade. Ian. I suspect that contempt for the enemy was huge factor in everything that happened at LBH. I think that the 'they will run' mindset probably was in effect until Keogh found all routes for escape were blocked. It kind of reminds me of a person sitting in his stalled car on a railroad track and waiting for the approaching express to stop. I think the only ones who quickly realized that 'this village' wasn't going to run were Reno and Benteen. Beth Well said Beth. When your strategy is based on "they will run", all sorts of things happen when they don't. I don't think the 7th failed as much as the NA's succeeded. Don't musunderstand me, the 7th made mistakes especially at the GAC level. The NA's made few mistakes on June 25th, 1876. To take this a step further. They were better led. They had greater numbers. They were better armed for the type of battle that was fought. They had interior lines of communication. They could shift warriors quickly to the point of attack. They didn't make the big mistake which was trying to carry Reno Hill once GAC was wiped out. They might have succeeded but their loses would have been high. Benteen was up there and he wasn't going to make a big mistake.
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