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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 23, 2014 6:31:47 GMT -6
Steve, I remember a discussion on either this board or the other, and it was mentioned that Custer couldn’t outrun the Indians due to his horses being tired, but when D Company pulled out due to pressure on WP, Vincent Charley was close enough to be shot through the hips, now due to the close proximity of the Indians, they didn’t even have time to rescue poor Vincent, so the Indians must have been mighty close, so how come D Company could disengage and get clean away.
Chuck, I haven’t wargammed for years and years, my Nephew give me a close run game in what turned out to be my last battle, what pains me is the loss of my models and figures, I still have a couple of thousand figures in the loft, but virtually no AFVs and regretfully no Napoleonic figures.
Ian.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 23, 2014 6:39:02 GMT -6
Montrose, I have played a few WW2 computer games, combat commander was my favourite, but never what I would call big unit games, were you move around regiments of infantry and cavalry plus artillery, and I guess the standard has improved too, with better graphics, I may see what’s on the market and treat myself.
Ian.
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Post by montrose on Sept 23, 2014 6:42:19 GMT -6
The pictures posted here show a common scouting error.
As LTC Custer kept moving north he gained more and more information. Each observation point revealed more of the Indian village, but not all. So that creates the "next ridge" syndrome. You keep hunting hoping the next ridge reveals the data you seek.
The military makes a distinction between information and intelligence. Information is raw data. Intelligence is processed data, where you apply the 'so what' test. The information of Indian dispositions and intentions was available from 3411 until the end of the battle. The problem is not the lack of timely and correct data, but a failure to process it. LTC Custer lacked experience and understanding of Indian warfare. A very successful conventional officer from the ACW was bewildered and confused in unconventional war. This is not a new phenomenon for the US Army, then, or now.
Now remember, LTC Custer was not on a reconnaissance mission. He was conducting a combat mission. Intelligence preparation of the battlefield (IPB) is not the hunt for 100% data on the enemy. You are seeking the Land of Good Enough. You need enough information to fight and win a battle. There is a tipping point where seeking additional data leads to wasted time and lost opportunities. It is a classic act of cautious and timid commander, such as McClellan.
Custer's timidity at LBH is difficult to comprehend. He had a trapped enemy and never committed more than 3 companies to offensive action. I believe the hunt for the next ridge overcame battlefield awareness and tactical skill and ability.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 23, 2014 7:08:20 GMT -6
Yes he definitely strung himself out like a shoe lace, so just what was his intentions? Leaving three companies back behind to cover a vast area was simply too much for their commander (Keogh) to comprehend, he just didn’t have the resources, Custer seemed to be trying to cover all bases but not actually controlling any of them, moving to find the full extent of the camps but not being able to engage because of lack of men (two companies) seems pointless as this job could have been done with a detail, and leaving the rest to try and cover his behind, true he didn’t expect such a force to come so soon and overcome Keogh, but he should have been alert to all eventualities, after all he was fighting Indians on their own turf and should have been ready for anything.
So something may have drove him to make this move forward, maybe civilians or just to find the north end. Did he initially feel that two companies was enough engage the civvies, or did he think that he needed this many men for security reasons, either way you have two options, attack or recce.
Ian.
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Post by fred on Sept 23, 2014 14:22:36 GMT -6
You have my permission Fred and if you want I can email you the picture that was not reduced in pixel size. Thank you, Steve. I got the larger one via e-mail and I am keeping both. I will let you know when I use it. Thanks again, for everything. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by custermania on Aug 8, 2021 17:10:25 GMT -6
Imo Custer on 25th going down the ridge is way to late to do recon. Especially if that recon causes you to separate the command more. Once Custer sent Reno to attack he allowed his own timeline to be sped up and attack instead recon. I mean so many people told Custer there were to many NA to attack and he kept going. Truth is he had everything on the line. His career, financial situation, reputation, and legacy. Custer was the ultimate gambler period. He gambled everytime he fought in battle. Sioux imo were the best Indian fighters and that’s hard to dispute. If Custer and his 79 men crossing Ford D each grab one person as hostage that would be 80 hostages you could put up front. It’s the ultimate defense. He separated his people to much and even used some as diversions just the timing was off.
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Post by noggy on Aug 9, 2021 2:09:17 GMT -6
Imo Custer on 25th going down the ridge is way to late to do recon. Especially if that recon causes you to separate the command more. Once Custer sent Reno to attack he allowed his own timeline to be sped up and attack instead recon. I mean so many people told Custer there were to many NA to attack and he kept going. Truth is he had everything on the line. His career, financial situation, reputation, and legacy. Custer was the ultimate gambler period. He gambled everytime he fought in battle. Sioux imo were the best Indian fighters and that’s hard to dispute. If Custer and his 79 men crossing Ford D each grab one person as hostage that would be 80 hostages you could put up front. It’s the ultimate defense. He separated his people to much and even used some as diversions just the timing was off. In theory, the Crows should have told him where any crossing points further North were. Then again, the scouts had told GAC what they saw from Wolf Mountains, and he insisted on looking for himself before acting. A recon "fits" depending on what kind of timing one operates with, plus adds the several "We can't know what/why/who"-s... you know, the stuff we really can't know but often decide to conclude about either way To me, 80 men seems too small to cross and capture, and too big to just recon. I'd say I wish I was there so I could see what happened for myself, but really I'm not since my Norse looks would have gotten me on the wrong side of the victors. Noggy
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Post by custermania on Aug 19, 2021 17:05:08 GMT -6
Imo if you take the Cherokee testimony and Sioux it’s very different especially by Ford b. I’m not sure how Gall would know since he was with Reno. Imo the only ones over by Ford b could give testimony what happened.
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Post by custermania on Aug 19, 2021 17:27:05 GMT -6
Yes I would try it. We know the results of not charging the village. Dead on last stand hill. Would it be difficult no doubt but IMO at that point it was the only way to win. Get in the village and hopefully the Indians panic will help you.
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