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Post by mac on Sept 17, 2014 6:30:46 GMT -6
I am interested in Fred's position that Custer never really was able to see what he was actually up against. Hope I state that correctly Fred. Even if I do not, I think it is an interesting thought. When I first became interested in this battle it was in relation to the topography in which the Custer portion was fought and it's confusing and deceptive nature. I know there are great differences of opinion on the subject of where Custer stopped but despite that I wonder if he could ever get a full appreciation of the size and disposition of the village. Remember I have never visited the site. From photographs I think Fred has a very good point and it is a very thoughtful analysis of a critical factor in our understanding of why things unfolded as they did. Cheers
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 17, 2014 7:26:12 GMT -6
Hi Mac, I am in the same boat as you, that I too haven’t been to the battlefield, but if I may I would like to add this; once GAC left 3400 he then moved along a rout which gave him zero visibility of the valley and village, and when he emerged out of MTC he would be on a level area known as the flats, now this area too would give him little in the way of scope if he wanted to see the whole camp, so I don’t think he got a real good view till he reached Custer Ridge, but looking at the maps you can see that there is a line of bluffs, trees and a river between him and the village, and these obstacles would give his enemy the cover they need to mass, if we are correct in saying that Custer kept to the ridgeline of CR, then he may have known the danger of riding too close to these objects and kept his distance.
Ian.
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Post by Colt45 on Sept 17, 2014 10:12:02 GMT -6
I agree with Fred that I don't think Custer ever really saw the whole village picture. I have been to the battlefield and tried to envision what Custer could have seen at various points on the ground. If he was on top of Calhoun hill, he could see toward the northern end of the village, but the trees and intervening bluffs do detract from what he could have seen. Add to that the fact dust was kicked up by the non-coms moving north and west and you have even worse visibility. If Custer got to the ford D area, near where the interstate meets the river, then he could have seen the north end of the village, but by that time, he is seeing a lot more than that, and that is enough of a reason to begin withdrawing from the ford D area back toward Cemetery ridge area. I believe Custer would have stayed on the east side of battle ridge in his move toward ford D because that masks his movement, and that is a standard army tactic. If he moved toward ford D that way, he wouldn't really see the village until he was in the flats close to ford D.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 17, 2014 10:18:56 GMT -6
Agree Colt. He was seeing bits and pieces and not the whole, and those bits and pieces were telling a story far different from the reality he confronted.
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Post by fred on Sept 17, 2014 13:28:08 GMT -6
Mac and Colt,
I have been away at the beach for a week, but I read your interesting posts. Give me a day or two to respond, but I believe I have enough pictures to be able to give you a pretty good graphic as to what Custer saw. I will couch it in the terms of how I believe this whole thing unfolded and maybe that will give you all a better grasp of what I think. Please just bear with me for a couple days.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Mulligan on Sept 17, 2014 19:25:47 GMT -6
I was on the Battlefield in June. On a previous visit some years ago, and on this more recent visit, I stood at many Custer locations (those easily accessible to a tourist by walking a short distance from the park road) and I deeply pondered this exact question. What did he see? From the southern bluff (Custer's OP) where he is reported to have been spotted (by Reno's men) from the valley floor, Custer would have seen the south end of the Big Village and it's breadth at that point, extending to the west. This would've given him a fairly good idea that he had stumbled onto a lot of tipis. He would see the large NA pony herd on the foothills, if it was still there. His view to the northwest, to what would be the center of the village and beyond, is blocked pretty well by sections of the bluff -- but not entirely so. I took this photo from the cliffs at Reno-Benteen. On Google Earth I am, as always, located at position M. Just South of Custer's OP ~~~ Possibility A: As his five mounted companies turned down into the area where Cedar Coulee meets MTC Custer would lose sight of the Big Village altogether. As he rode onto the flat, upper end of MTC he would see he was in a wide, shallow ravine between the bluffs he had just been on, to his left, and a set of slightly higher ridges to his right -- East Ridge and the prominent Luce Ridge. This dry creek bed -- Medicine Tail Coulee -- would channel him right down to the river's edge. MTC is a long, flat chute and Custer would have clearly seen the top of the cottonwood tree line that defined the banks of the LBH. From here, you can smell the river. He is now within sight (1700 yards) of a possible ford directly ahead of him -- let's call it Ford B1. If he were to charge straight down to this area he would see, as he arrived, that there was a flatter and more accessible ford to his immediate left. This is what everyone refers to as Ford B. Ford B If Custer's men had been having trouble controlling their horses before, then at this juncture -- halfway down MTC -- the reins would be a real handful. I think this is far past the time to have any involved tactical discussion. Custer could see he was committed by the terrain. He knew the battle was underway. If he was going to cross LBH at the center of the Big Village, so be it. Let's roll.IMHO -- as a somewhat experienced rider -- things sped up very rapidly at this point, from a cantor to a fast trot, and maybe faster. Momentum increased dramatically. Emotions were at a peak. This was definitely the first part of a thundering cavalry charge as we think of it. About this time Custer might have wondered about those hilltops to his right. They appear like they might provide a sweeping panoramic view of the valley below. Luce Ridge, in particular, may have looked very inviting as an elevated command post. But it was too late. To Be Continued...Mulligan
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Post by mac on Sept 17, 2014 22:20:45 GMT -6
Thanks Fred! Looking forward to it.
Mulligan Again interesting pictures. You assume Custer would lead his men straight down the chute. I doubt that!
One thing that occurs to me is that in this terrain on the east side of the river there may be spots where one can see tipis but not the whole thing. So as you move you catch glimpses of the village from varying angles that make it hard to fully appreciate the whole. This could be quite deceptive. Cheers
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Post by Mulligan on Sept 18, 2014 0:57:03 GMT -6
Mac,
The entire five companies charging en masse is only Possibility "A".
I'm walking down MTC and I'm seeing with my own eyes "What Custer Saw". The river was very close. Five companies -- charging down the chute, knee to knee, like a 50/70 slug fired through the octagonal barrel of Custer's Remington -- would be hard to stop. When outnumbered, stay together and strike like a thunderbolt.
"Come on, you Wolverines!!"
Going up on the ridge for a look would take valuable time. Custer could see that, for sure. Those ridge tops seem very high and far away from the bottom of MTC. Why waste another minute? In the Possibility "A" scenario, I think he knew as much as he wanted to know. His men were ready. The horses were barely controllable.
Also, the five company charge would correlate well with the Freeman map, which I will illustrate in a future post.
From his OP position Custer would have known the Big Village was really, really big, even without knowing precisely. I'm not fully convinced he was trying to find the north end of it. In Possibility "A" I think he was searching for the closest point of attack. It should be obvious by now he was going in, regardless of the consequences. And sooner, rather than later.
Be quick. Bring packs. ...bring packs.
What seems clear is that a separation of forces would leave behind a broken trail up the eastern ridge slopes by several companies of shod cavalry horses. This trail was never seen or reported by anyone (as far as I can tell), and to this day even the NPS debates where a separation, if any, may have occurred.
I have my own thoughts, but I'm just a newbie. I'll wait awhile for Fred's version of "What Custer Saw" before I offer my next installment, Possibility "B".
Mulligan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 18, 2014 2:26:11 GMT -6
Mulligan;
I brought this scenario up a few weeks ago concerning the whole five companies in column charging down MTC, yes MTC it does look like freeway into the village, but imagine the momentum these columns would have coming straight down and across the river, like a freight train in fact, with companies in column similar to carriages, so would they be able to stop if one or two men got hit (even their commander) and would the 20+ Indians facing them just be brushed aside.
Ian.
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Post by Mulligan on Sept 18, 2014 2:54:08 GMT -6
Ian, OK, I'm now going to demonstrate my newly acquired cavalry tactics knowledge from Napoleon: Total War.
When coming within firing range of the enemy the attacking cavalry formation (column) fans out. Files are at about three to four feet apart, or more. After taking the initial volley of fire the files then close ranks to knee to knee distance as they engage the enemy line. This would allow for wiggle room on the volley, if a horse goes down in front of you. More applicable to musket fire at Waterloo, rather than Winchesters at LBH. Thank you, Quincannon. No mention in my Hussar handbook about crossing rivers while charging -- that's in von Clausewitz -- but the river banks at Ford B look pretty flat, and the current can be shallow. I think you're right, Ian. In Possibility "A" the five companies would enter the Big Village like a runaway train. Of course, that didn't actually happen so we'll have to modify the scenario or move on to Possibility "B". Mulligan cc: Cavalry Tactics
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 18, 2014 4:35:43 GMT -6
If they did split then the chances are it happened in MTC, AZ explained to me ages ago that you can get to Nye-Cartwright from MTC, so if they did separate and Keogh sat upon the ridges and Custer went to the flats, then just look again at your map, and see that this is not a full blown attack, as your main body was 1500 yards behind.
This separation is intriguing though, if this separation took place and the two wings operated independently of each other, then you could say that Custer was saving the Keogh wing for the main attack, probably in tandem with Benteen (when he arrives), and he and Yates formed a roving role in establishing the position for such an attack.
Ian.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 18, 2014 6:09:57 GMT -6
Mulligan that picture is from Reno Hill area looking down to Reno's retreat crossing a terrible crossing at the time. I don't Custer was ever there. I believe he was at 3411 which is the higher point toward Weir.
I rode across Reno retreat crossing twice and the first time my horse stuck his head completely under water. Riding up from there it is very steep and not conducive to formation riding and it would give a full view of horses moving down it slope at slow pace due to the steepness. I don't think Reno thought it was a good crossing place but it was the best available choice.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 18, 2014 6:26:17 GMT -6
View from 3411. Terry standing on 3411
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 18, 2014 6:37:04 GMT -6
View from 3411 zoomed and looking downstream
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 18, 2014 6:38:09 GMT -6
Looking more downstream the bluffs and Weir begin to block the view
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