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Post by quincannon on Feb 6, 2013 18:35:19 GMT -6
We have had and still have a Jewish mayor of New York City. So what?
Every city in Europe had a Jewish ghetto from at least the Middle Ages to fairly recent times. Dublin was no exception. A ghetto by definition is the corraling of a portion of a countries population and limiting them to that particular area for religious or ethnic reasons.
You are on shaky ground here Richard. Research it and find out the truth before you next pick up a stone to aim at my country. You have enough dirty laundry of your own.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 6, 2013 19:34:31 GMT -6
Dan: Richard is trying to apply mid 20th Century thought to a mid-19th Century and before problem. The UN Conventions were a direct result of the happenings of World War II. They are a good definition of genocide and a more than adequate model for the conduct of world affairs from the time of their adoption onward.
What Richard fails to realize from his high and mighty perch on the bar stool is that humanity is a work in progress. Always has been. Always will be.
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Post by benteen on Feb 6, 2013 21:10:36 GMT -6
Dan: Richard is trying to apply mid 20th Century thought to a mid-19th Century and before problem. The UN Conventions were a direct result of the happenings of World War II. They are a good definition of genocide and a more than adequate model for the conduct of world affairs from the time of their adoption onward. . Colonel, You are correct. Without thinking, I carelessly applied 20th century rules to an 19th century event. The worst thing about it is that I cant even blame Mr Rossi or Mr Daniels, we hadnt spoken yet Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Feb 6, 2013 21:33:12 GMT -6
Dan: It is impossible to unring a bell. Man's progress is measured by learning from the mistakes of the past and insuring that through rule of law they are never repeated. Therefore history is instructive only so far as in telling us how far we have come.
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Post by wild on Feb 7, 2013 1:53:07 GMT -6
There was no ghetto in Dublin to which the Irish State restricted Jews. In the US the government through violent coercion confined to concentration camps a whole ethnic group bringing to an end the Indian way of life and all that involved.An ethnic group ceased to function. The difference between the methods of Germany and the US was that the germans killed their victims in concentration camps,the US killed their victms to get them into concentration camps.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 7, 2013 9:32:51 GMT -6
I never said the Irish State restricted Jews or anyone else. I said there was a Jewish ghetto in Dublin, from the time of at least the Middle Ages until fairly recent times (meaning within the last few hundred years). The history of Ireland is a history of the Irish people, so please do not try to hide behind the banner of republicanism when it suits your purpose.
Now would you like to discuss Operation Kathleen? On second thought I don't guess you would, for it might tarnish your outlook of personal and national victimhood.
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Post by wild on Feb 7, 2013 16:43:04 GMT -6
There was no district in Dublin exclusively Jewish.There was no area in Dublin where the Jewish community formed a majority.There was no policy of opression by the Irish state against any religious community.Our constitution guarantees religious and personal freedom. As regards what happened in the middle ages I would have to refer you to her majesty's government.
The US put in place a system of violent coercion in order to place an entire distinct ethnic group in what can only described as a human dust bin. Life in just about all it's manifestations ended for the Indian.Without hope,without dignity,without purpose they were dead men walking.Genocide pure and simple.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 7, 2013 18:16:53 GMT -6
I suppose there were never slaves in Ireland too? Careful now.
Your constitution did not exist when the ghettos were in Dublin. The ghettos in Dublin and everywhere else in Europe were accepted practice of Christians discriminating against Jews. So don't give that Her Majesties government crap. It was persecution conducted by Christians on persons of another faith. Did any of you worry about their hopes and their dignity when your own church both condoned and encouraged it?
Is that the same personal freedom that allowed that poor woman to die when she could have been saved? Is that the same personal freedom that allows religious beliefs of one faith to become the law governing all faiths? Is that the same religious freedom that allows your country to be governed by the dictates of the Vatican? Is that the one enshrined in your constitution?
So what does the admittedly mistaken actions, that were still far short of a definition that did not exist until post 1945 have to do with things in 2013? On the other hand your barbarian conduct letting that poor woman die happend two months ago. That is reckless indifference to human life here in the States and by definition it is second degree murder. In your country it is legal, and you dare be critical of us. Look again at that definition you are so fond of throwing in everyones face as you alternate between sanctamonious sack of s**t and perpetual victim, and tell me if the denying that woman life, when it could have been saved, is not in itself genocide, After all it says in whole or in part. Was she not part?
So I would not suspect you would much care for your country being dragged through the mud of history, yet you feel more than free to drag mine. We here are aware of our past, both good and bad. We have attempted to fix the bad, and have not always or not yet been fully successful. I would suspect then that you would wish to do the same for yours, instead of glossing over or failing to even admit your past, much of it just as or more sordid than any other country. Just sitting there whinning and feeling sorry for yourself, while saying it's all the Queens fault just shows to me that your lack spine.
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Post by wild on Feb 8, 2013 4:36:14 GMT -6
You must try to understand that highlighting supposed social,medical and political issues in Ireland is not a defence against the charge of genocide against the US in it's dealings with the plains Indians. We have had a long history of struggle aqainst oppression marked by awful outrages on all sides. We like all states are a work in development with it's successes and failures. The issue of genocide was not raised by me but by alfakilo and contributed to by Dan and Gatewood.All questioning the actions of the US government of the day.Yet I'm to be the sanctamonious sack of s**tIt requires no moral courage to piss out of the tent rather than into it.Can only imagine what the rhetoric would be like if I was German,Turkish,Serbian or Rwandan. Try to adopt a more clinical adult detached approach to historical debate and less of the emotional juvenile.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 8, 2013 4:52:12 GMT -6
Hi Richard, don’t bother mithering the British Government or Queen Liz, take it up with the Normans, because up till then, both the English and Irish got on well (well not completely, Irish bandits did raid the coast of Britain, but that’s another story).
I have sat this discussion out until now, because being English might seem like ‘’the Kettle calling the pot black’’, giving that Britain and America had a war way back and there is also an Irish person involved too.
If the U.S. Government wanted to commit total Genocide on the American Indian, then they would have to murder members of the tribes that were friendly too (didn’t GAC take along Indian scouts who help him in his quest), so you cannot compare what Nazi Germany did to the Jews (and a others as well) in WW2 to what happened in USA with the Indians, the US Government would have to issue orders to kill every Indian from the west coast to the east coast and from Canada to Mexico, and involve every tribe (friendly or not), because that’s what the Nazis planned to do with the Jews.
Relationship with Eire has never been as strong, with the Queen going over there and shaking hands with past enemies, so I hope that it will last (as long as the Irish Government doesn’t need another bail out of cash to support is flagging economy and failing banks).
Abraham Lincoln wished; ‘’a perpetual peace and friendship between two nations’’, and he has got it.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 8, 2013 5:05:45 GMT -6
How is this for a clinical approach? You live in a nation of whinning sheep led by witch doctors and rabid dogs.
We too live in a nation where oppression is not unknown, and where outrages have been commonplace. We sure as hell though do not pity ourselves, and we sure don't blame the Queen for our problems. We try to solve them, and the majority have been over time, but it is a work in progress.
You differ from the Nazis and the rest only by degree. You could have done something for that poor woman to relieve her suffering and save her life, yet you as an individual and the great majority of your country stood by and did nothing. It seems to me that is the same attitude adopted by those living next to concentration camps in Germany 1939-45. Oh my goodness that was awful. We didn't know. Your laws killed her yet you wash your hands of the matter. You didn't know. The three words of a moral coward.
Yes AK and the rest did question the morality of what happened. I question the morality of what happened. America questioned the morality of what happened and it ceased to happen over time. The difference is that we question lack of morality and indifference in our country and do something, if it is only to raise our voice. You sit on your ass and watch it happen and do nothing. You let it happen, and will let it happen again tomorrow, and only the courageous souls in your midst say no, this is not right. You on the other hand when confronted by the moral degeneration of your society change the subject.
It is your clinical detachment that let that woman die. If you wish to be clinicily detatched to legal murder that is up to you but it is that same clinical detachment, that indifference that marks you as just as responsible as the doctor who refused the life saving help. It was that same clinical detachment that suggested nuking the USSR too I suppose. Seems you have been clinicly detached for eight years and like the rest of you whinning rubbish, blame everyone but yourself.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 8, 2013 5:20:45 GMT -6
Good morning Chuck, how are you on this fine day.
I have been following the events in Mali on TV, and going on what I have seen so far, the region of North Africa has become the latest target of Islamist Extremists, now these are bad guys let’s make no mistake about it, reading some of the posts on this thread concerning the Nazi killing Jews not only in Germany but every country they conquered, well these Extremists are of a similar ilk, they move into countries who are weak and poorly led, and murder any Christian’s they come across, they also commit various acts of violence against the local population.
I seen a segment on the news last week that the Extremists attacked a small city in Mali, this city was also home to an Malian Army Base full of Soldiers and Equipment, when the Malian Troops got wind that the Extremists were making their way to the City (the city they were supposed to defend), they stripped off their uniforms and fled, leaving all their Equipment behind, the people in this city then had to live under the control of the Extremists till the French came along and kicked them out, now I am no big lover of the French, but I have to take my hat off to them, they made short work of the Extremists and retook the city and gave it back to the people.
So these cowardly so called Extremists pick their targets well and have no stomach for a fight when they are faced by men who will fight back, I would have rounded up all them soldiers who discarded there uniform’s and deserted, and took them back to the city and let them run the gauntlet of shame, parade them through the main street clad only in their underwear and let the locals do with them as they please.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 8, 2013 5:33:50 GMT -6
Ian: I have been following Mali also, but we don't get as much coverage here as you do. The best coverage of these events is on BBC World News. What is remarkable to me is that they are in fairly small numbers.
The French have done a remarkable job, but they too are in small numbers, and while these people have been driven out they still retain the initiative to strike elsewhere. They seem to have the same characteristics as the Quantrell and Anderson rubbish that terrorized the border states during our civil war, bandits and brigands
As far as army in Mali, it proves once again that you just can't put a uniform on a man, give him a weapon and call it an army. Are you old enough to remember the Mau Mau and the Simbas of an earlier day in Africa. Same thing then. Same thing now.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 8, 2013 5:46:16 GMT -6
Your right Chuck, I used to know a guy who fought in Malay against the Mau Mau, but he did not talk much about being in action, he did however speak of the humidity out there and the local brothels of course, in his words ‘’you English, you wan jiggy jiggy’’.
Back to Mali, Once the French decide to leave the Extremists will return, so I think it’s down to the men in Mali to grow some balls, let the French train them up and make them fight for their own freedom, its them and their families who will suffer at the hands of these nutters, so it’s time for them to man up and fight instead of sitting back and waiting for the Europeans to save them.
It’s funny you mentioned Quantrell, I seen a movie last night starring Audie Murphy, it was called Arizona Raiders, the movie started with Murphy being one of Quantrells men.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 8, 2013 6:06:53 GMT -6
Ian: It goes beyond training up an army. You can train men for an army unitil Kingdom Come and it will do no good unless they and the people they serve have confidence in their governance. No confidence, no fight, and that is an iron law of counterinsurgency concerning training up a native army, one we have yet to learn I am afraid.
The Mau Mau were in Kenya not the Malay States. The Commonweath actions in the Malaya serve as a model, and I have also noticed that there are not to many Mau Maus around these days.
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