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Post by Gatewood on Jan 28, 2013 16:42:57 GMT -6
quote] Custer dying is the answer Darl Cloud/Shatonska In a previous post I stated that I didnt agree with the theory of Custer being hit early in the fight, but it would certainly fill in a lot of blanks. One question. IF Custer(George) was mortally wounded at Ford B, why would Tom/Yates race North, away from Reno/Benteen and even Keogh. Why wouldny they just go back to Keoghs position, have the entire battalion together, and figure out their next move. Having the Battalion united would present a much more difficult obstacle for the warriors, they would be less willing to charge them and it would have given them more time to address the situation. Be Well Dan Dan - the conventional argument against Custer having been killed or seriously wounded early on is the fact that the bodies of all of his headquarters personnel were found grouped right around his and, if he had been incapacitated earlier, they would have gravitated to the new commander, which would have been Keogh. However, there is some speculation that Keogh also went down early, so that may well have thrown everything temporarily out of kilter for just long enough for disaster to occur. Another argument against Custer being killed or wounded earlier is the fact that he supposedly had only two wounds - one to the chest and one to the head - either of which would have been fatal. However, I wonder if it is possible that he received an earlier, grazing wound to the head that may have been sufficient to knock him from his horse and temporarily daze/disable him, yet was inconspicuous enough that it was overlooked by those that viewed his body. That might explain the several Indian accounts of an officer being shot from his horse in the Ford B area, as well as what appear to us to be questionable subsequent actions on the part of the regiment and its components.
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Post by benteen on Jan 28, 2013 16:47:19 GMT -6
Benteen, They're in column, four across probably, they come under fire from the south side of the coulee above them, Custer hit. Was not aware of this at all.I was always under the impression that the warriors didnt know Custer was there until the probe at ford B. From what I have read there were only a couple of warriors on the West (Camp) side of the river fired on the soldiers and the soldiers fell back. Certainly if they are being fired on from the South side and above them, riding back through the coulee would have been foolish. Thanks for clearing that up. Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Jan 28, 2013 16:59:24 GMT -6
DC: If Custer came down MTC with high ground on both sides of him he was a complete idiot. High speed avenue of approach or not, that was not the way to go. If he did that he, personally deserved to get whacked for absolute stupidity.
Shat: Fred is going to tell you that there was no delay at Ford D or Cemetery Ridge or anywhere else up there. No smoking and joking delay that is. If they got to Ford D they were quickly up to their eyeballs in indians and they did not go back to Keogh, because they could not go back to Keogh. They from the outset were at or near the point of decisive engagement, the point where you lose your ability to maneuver.
Gatewood: The color photo is from Battle of Midway. I always to that one, the other one, and another of Hornet sinking to be because of wear and tear to the f/d. A friend of mine from Florida told me in so many words to look to my own library, where the answer was found. No markings at all per a mid July drawing. I did not want to mask off all those little lines anyway, not at 1/1250 scale. Thanks for your time and trouble.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 28, 2013 17:41:58 GMT -6
It's not the grand canyon and it fans out and it's not necessary for my favored scenario he be 'in' the coulee, but the concern about dust and hiding - at odds with cheers, hat wavings, and the banners flying - might have led to that. Curley's account puts them in the coulee for the saddle tightening, so I lean with that. And they may have seen no signs of enemy presence on the east bank from high ground.
But deflection north by fire and wounded Custer and all that would hold. If you're in any drainage there's higher ground on either side. Doesn't resemble the Dallas book depository, no.
It wouldn't take long if unnoticed to reach the river and cross, and certainly makes more sense than riding along the river in full view for a potential crossing miles downriver where they certainly would be met with prepared hostility.
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Post by Gatewood on Jan 28, 2013 18:05:05 GMT -6
QC,
I re-looked at the photos of Hornet's aft flight deck and see my mistake. When I look a little closer I can see that what I originally perceived as being makings to mark the arrestor cable locations are actually the cable supports.
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Post by alfakilo on Jan 28, 2013 18:39:01 GMT -6
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Post by quincannon on Jan 28, 2013 18:39:12 GMT -6
Gatewood: Are you by chance a modeler?
DC: The coulee is a poor route to advance on from a tactical perspective.
Did Curley ever say MT Coulee, or just coulee? Did he ever go to the spot and say this is the place? Regardless of what anyone thinks of Curley was his testimony so specific that it would be impossible to mistake its meaning? I don't know the answers to these questions.
What I do know is that when Custer went to 3411 or thereabouts, would have been the opportune time to adjust saddles. That would make the most sense to me, and not after you have committed yourself to a course of action. That would fall into the catagoy of last minute pre-combat checks.
I would think that were it the intent to attack or reconoiter with two companies at MTC, and I am not saying that was the intent. I do not know. The best formation would have probably been two parallel columns one in the coulee along the low slopes of L-N-C, and the other running the ridge line, just down on the east side as to not skyline themselves. In this formation a point element of the right column would be a few hundred meters in front of the point of the left column.
Another minor point which may or may not pertain to Custer. Leading from the front does not mean you are out riding point. Leading from the front means positioning yourself where you can control action upon contact. You may get a lot of press as a commander riding point, but your last clipping will be your obituary.
All in all though I would give Custer credit for a little more prudence in route selection. You could be right and so could I, but somebody still has to tell me what Godfrey saw on the 27th.
AK: Thanks. I had not seen some of those. You two fellows have saved me a lot of paint detail work.
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Post by alfakilo on Jan 28, 2013 18:55:58 GMT -6
AK: Thanks. I had not seen some of those. You two fellows have saved me a lot of paint detail work. Glad to help. Midway has always been an interest of mine...trying to imagine what it would have been like back then to take off not knowing what to expect. I've been into the drink...it's a lonely feeling.
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Post by Gatewood on Jan 28, 2013 19:29:34 GMT -6
AK - another thing that those photos bring home is how congested and dangerous the flight decks were. With all of the spinning props in the confined space, there was little room for error, and I am sure that there were many errors and injuries. I remember once seeing a photo of a crewman that had his head split open by a prop, and I would think that it probably wasn't a rare occurrence.
QC - years ago I got it into my head that I would like to build wooden ship models and purchased a kit of the HMS Beagle for my first endeavor. I got it about half planked before I got distracted, and then kids and things came along and took up my time, so I never finished it. I still have it and keep thinking that I will get back to it someday, but never do. However, somewhere along the line I did manage to complete a model of a British 9 pound-er cannon, but I don't know what ever happened to it. I also got interested in building clocks, and have completed several of those.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 28, 2013 19:36:53 GMT -6
AK: Among my more rowdy friends the name of Stanhope Ring and his performance at Midway elicits emotions not unlike those found during a knife fight in a phone booth. It makes the worst of the Custer comments seem like polite conversation in a convent.
For those who do not know who he is Ring was CAG of the Hornet. He damned near lost Midway, and retired a Vice Admiral after doing absolutely nothing of consequence during the rest of the war or the rest of his career. The guy who won Midway retired as a Captain - Clarence Wade McClusky.
There is a USS McClusky however, and no USS Ring.
Midway is one of three or four critical, must win, battles in American History. Of course it is naval, and that turns some folks off, but battles are not fought between ships or aircraft or tanks, they are fought by thinking men, so in that sense it is universal.
GW: I have a friend into wooden ships. I think he told me his longest construction time was 20 years give or take. He had a model of the Royal Caroline next to my pitiful stuff at last years show that made me want to crawl under the table in embarrassment.
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Post by Gatewood on Jan 28, 2013 20:02:13 GMT -6
Spruance was quite upset with the Hornet's performance at Midway and blamed Marc Mitscher, who was the Hornet's captain at the time. That nearly derailed Mitscher's career, and Nimitz subsequently assigned him to a shore command, rather than as commander of Task Force 17 as previously intended. However, he did well in his assignment, eventually commanded all Allied air assets in the Solomons, and regained Nimitz's trust. On the other hand, he seems to have never fully regained Spruance's trust, which may have been a factor in Spruance's decision not to go after the Japanese carriers at Philippine Sea. In fairness, the Hornet was still a new ship and suffering teething problems at the time of Midway.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 28, 2013 20:09:31 GMT -6
Miles Browning probably won Midway. McCluskey was of less importance if there were no targets changing ordinance under him when he arrived. Generally considered a giant ass, but he was sharp and right a lot.
I don't recall what Curly said, I only recall Gray saying Curly had mentioned tightening saddles and Gray thought it in Cedar coulee. Gray doesn't agree with me, regardless.
The coulees (Weir or Cedar) - or near it - is about the straightest line to the B ford from Weir Pt. area IF you want some concealment, a theory. Otherwise where the road is would be quickest. That ford was the quickest way to contact, the enemy was aware of them or soon would be once they advanced.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 28, 2013 20:27:46 GMT -6
DC: The latest works on the subject have nothing good to say about Browning, Ring or Mitscher.
GW is spot on about Mitscher. Ring was a hopeless pretty boy who could not find his ass with both hands. Browning screwed up more at Midway than he contributed. It was by his direction that the air groups wasted all that fuel forming up over the carriers.
Had it not been for McCluskys decision to continue on, he would have never found the IJN destroyer which led him right to Kido Butai. Ring went the wrong direction, never found a thing because of his navigational error, turned around and lost half his planes and aircrews not to enemy action but to running out of fuel obeying Brownings directives. Waldron disobeyed the orders about orbiting, and disobeyed the orders Ring gave him about what course to take. Waldron died, but if you look at the timing Waldron and VT8 along with 6 and 3 kept Kido Butai maneuving long enough so that they could not launch against Yorktown whose location they discovered. The last of VT3s planes were still engaged when McClusky hit.
He might have been right a lot, but he was dead wrong at Midway and the only thing that saved his butt was the patronage of Halsey.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 28, 2013 20:36:51 GMT -6
Haven't read that, so I'll admit error and find time to read the new stuff. What I've read is that Browning figured there would be a key time to hit the Japanese carriers as they changed ordinance, and that's what he timed out. If not true, I'm wrong. You didn't want to hit them early but when they were transitioning.
Based on my extensive carrier combat experience, it rings true.
Here for the rest of week, two shows Sunday. Bring the kids. Thank you. Too much.
He slept around with other officers' wives and was a genuine creep in that area, and there was a lot of resentment towards him, so I remain somewhat suspicious of the objectivity of new sources, especially if they're navy guys. He's also Chevy Chase's grandfather, so those who hate Chase.......
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Post by quincannon on Jan 28, 2013 20:46:53 GMT -6
DC: If Browning could figure that out he must have devine qualities.
Yes he did advocate hitting them as the first strike against the island was returning to the carriers. What he had no way of knowing was that there was a second strike bombed up and waiting to go on Nagumo's orders but at the suggestion of the first strike commander Tomonaga. It was after that strike was ready to go that an aircraft from Tone found Yorktown, and Nagumo ordered that bombed up second strike to change their loads, while the first strike was landing. It was this delay, that could not be forseen by anyone on the American side and all that ordnance laying about on hanger decks that caused the catistrophic loss of three carriers within ten minutes.
I urge you to get and read Shattered Sword. Best work on Midway, including that of Prange, that there is.
Browning was also relieved for cause from command of Hornet for misconduct, having nothing to do with officer's wives.
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