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Post by rosebud on Nov 21, 2012 18:35:55 GMT -6
Dear Rosebud,
...thank you for your kind offer of assistance. Yes I have found the references to the Wolf Mountains can stretch quite a way, something that I found perplexing initially. Your name implies that you know the area perhaps better than most, so, whilst this has nothing to do with Smith at Ford B, I would like to tell you of my findings and perhaps if you have the time, can tell me if I'm on the right track...
Bradley I find to be such a diligent operator, intent on accuracy and his mileages and descriptions help us along considerably.
Setting off on the evening of May 15 from base camp near the Little Porcupine Creek with 26 others including some Crows, he tells us that they ''passed the Rosebud some five miles out'' [eastward], before going on to camp at the base of the Wolf Mountains. The following morning May 16 he finds a sheltered cove and with the Crows went ''to the top of a promising peak... we have a fair view of the Rosebud from it's mouth upward for over 30 miles...''
I believe this peak is the one marked el. 3072, found at the headwaters of Sweeney Creek, near a minor tributary called Bell Creek and I call this his Lookout no. 1 [ because he had 2].
He finds no Sioux on the Rosebud and sees a ''ridge of considerable elevation interposed between us and the Tongue River''.... they ''saddled up and moved on'' towards this ridge.... ''finally by ascending the summit of a wooded ridge...'' from where he found the Tongue River village, the river being ''between five and six miles in our front''... and ''timber [on the river] showing through one break in the bluffs''....
this peak which I call Lookout no. 2 I believe is the one marked el. 3025 right at the headwaters of the appropriately named Sixmile Creek which enters the Tongue River just up a little from where the village was located [near a place today called Garland]....
I can also see from the map that from this 3025 peak, a gap in the bluffs which would reveal the Tongue River as Bradley tells us, 6 miles below.... This Indian camp I think was situated roughly where Horse Creek and Sixmile enter the Tongue just a few miles above Garland....
On May 27 Bradley is sent out again, but this time Gibbon has moved camp down to opposite the Rosebud, a couple of miles below the confluence.... crossing the Yellowstone he goes upriver for a mile to enter a ''deep, dry ravine'' [this I think is Butte Creek on the map] which he says they followed for a few miles until it ran out [which it does] ...then crossing the plains to his old lookout [no. 1] ''from which we made our observations on the 16th''... so we are back to el. 3072 on today's Bell Creek... and it's from here which he states is ''8 to 10 miles from the Rosebud'' that he first sees the village on that stream, about 18 or 19 miles above it's mouth....
So I conclude that his two lookouts were from el. 3072 Bell/Sweeney Creek to view the Rosebud, and el. 3025 eastwards on Sixmile for the Tongue..... the Moon Creek which you mentioned I find to be a little too far east....
The Sioux camp when it left the Tongue River, I believe went up Sixmile Creek passing close by and below both these peaks before going west to follow Eagle Creek where it enters the Rosebud at about mile 18 or 19 above it's mouth which is where the first camp was located on this stream and caught Bradley's eye...
...I hope that's clear...
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Post by rosebud on Nov 21, 2012 19:00:33 GMT -6
Helford,
I wanted to check this out with others before I made any rash statements that were wrong.
First, we must be careful when we use Bradley's estimations of miles and try to verify or place locations based on these mileages. We know that the scouts were not taking Bradley on any well used trail. In fact, Bradley stops and gives them heck because he knows they are messing with him. Trying to get him to go back and not go find the Indian village. We also know this is at night so distance traveled over unknown country will be about impossible to judge accurately.
Every one that I talk to around here, came to the same conclusion that I had. Bradley's first lookout is at the Rosebud Buttes. They are called Wolf mountains on some very old maps. It is also the best place to look up the Rosebud creek valley and it matches the description given by Bradley that he could see 30 miles up the valley and still see the mouth of the Rosebud.
When one just uses mileages, it does not fit but I think we already know they were not good judges of distance. The next clue we get is when they tell how long it took for them to return from the lookout on their second trip to the " same lookout" that they used on the 16Th It only took them 2 hours to return to the camp that was located on the North side of the Yellowstone. That description fits the Rosebud Buttes.
As for your second location, the one looking into the Tongue river valley, I see no problem. Can't say it is exact but I can't say its not. It is as good as any.
Now for the Indian village and their travel from the Tongue to the Rosebud. Yes, the band that Wooden Legs was with did cross and come down Eagle Creek... But I think they were Cheyenne and not Sioux. Not a big deal because I suspect Bradley just assumed they were all going to be Sioux.
You can drive right to the first lookout located in the Rosebud Buttes. When you do I am sure you will have no question about this as the first lookout.
Rosebud
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Post by Margaret on Nov 22, 2012 10:30:28 GMT -6
...thank you for your reply. I think we are on the same page rosebud, as regards these lookout positions of Bradley's, although as I said before I find his mileages to be incredibly accurate and not to be discounted.
Yes he was led astray by the Crows on that first scout [May 16] from his base near the LIttle Porcupine, but on his 2nd scout on May 27 to the same lookout, he gives us the mileage from his camp now near the mouth of the Rosebud, and it tallies up perfectly.
On Google Maps I can see what I think you must be referring to as the Rosebud Buttes and they are in the exact same place as el. 3072 so I am confident they ascended one of these. I notice Butte Creek Road runs right below.... and on the image they look like a group of grey buttes, so I think they must be what you are referring to as well here.
...strange how the first post on this apparently new thread has morphed into one of yours - someone must have moved it.... but this discussion wasn't appropriate on the other one about Smith, I have to admit...
I'm putting something together about the Indian movement from the Tongue River to the Rosebud, from about May 18-27, which I'm finding quite interesting to do, and hope to post something later about this. You might be able to help me out with it. I hope so...
...until then,
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Post by rosebud on Nov 22, 2012 17:57:45 GMT -6
Helford
I don't think we are at the same location. The elevations at the peaks I am talking about are over 3300 feet. One is 3361 almost 300 feet higher than your location.
I'm putting something together about the Indian movement from the Tongue River to the Rosebud, from about May 18-27, which I'm finding quite interesting to do, and hope to post something later about this. You might be able to help me out with it. I hope so...
If I can't, I know someone who can. He has some amazing stuff on that subject. He has just about anything you need from the Chalk Buttes (near Ekalaka MT) with the movements of each band until they get to Busby.
Rosebud
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Post by Margaret on Nov 22, 2012 19:30:47 GMT -6
...this isn't entirely crucial, but I don't have anything on my topo map, 1 inch to 4 miles, with those measurements. Can you be more specific as to where these Rosebud Buttes actually are...? Can you give me a creek name nearby perhaps?
The nearest elevation I can see to yours is a 3310 and I'm wondering now if it's this one? it's on what looks like a heavily wooded ridge towards the Tongue River yet closer to the Rosebud... about 5 miles south of el. 3072. Would this be it?
I'd be interested, obviously, to hear of your friend's assessments, particularly from the Tongue to Rosebud segments. Although it seems to me that no one could be absolutely certain about it surely. Calculated guesses and all that.... local experience on horseback would be an advantage, I imagine...
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Post by rosebud on Nov 22, 2012 20:39:15 GMT -6
Helford,
If you have an elevation of 3300 or more you are probably in the right area. These Buttes are located on the divide at the head of Butte creek, which you are already familiar with. They also are on the divide overlooking Rosebud Creek . The Eastern edge of these Buttes will be on the Sweeney Creek drainage.
I will take some pictures in the next day or so from different angles. Probably won't give a true image but it will give you a good idea of how prominent this lookout is for that whole area.
You can try google earth and look to the north north from Rosebud creek and it will give you some indication of their view of the valley.
Point the view to the north with a ground view. or the fly over feature. Hope you understand what I mean....I sure as heck don't.
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Post by Margaret on Nov 23, 2012 8:04:51 GMT -6
...thank you for your help in this. I believe I have found these Rosebud Buttes - and there are a lot of them and most attractive they seem to be too, looking from the satellite view...
..it matches up more with his descriptions of the area I think, more than el 3072 a few miles to the north, but it doesn't sit happily with his mile estimates - too close to the Rosebud and too far from the Yellowstone... I would also think he could see Tongue River from this point, which he couldn't do from his 1st lookout...
...I shall have to reach a conclusion on it in due course...
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Post by rosebud on Nov 23, 2012 9:37:30 GMT -6
it matches up more with his descriptions of the area I think, more than el 3072 a few miles to the north, but it doesn't sit happily with his mile estimates - too close to the Rosebud and too far from the Yellowstone... I would also think he could see Tongue River from this point, which he couldn't do from his 1st lookout...
...I shall have to reach a conclusion on it in due course. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I knew you would not like his mileages. If you look again at his second trip to lookout #1 you realize that he took Butte Creek (you already know that) but he took the left or east fork which looks like the main creek at that point. The left fork ends just as he described and leaves him open ground to cross before he gets to the Buttes.
Rosebud
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Post by Margaret on Nov 23, 2012 18:43:40 GMT -6
hi Rosebud,
..yes I understood they exited from Butte Creek ravine but they still had a long way to go at that point....
It seems I have 2 choices. I know of no others. Peak A at el. 3072 [John Gray used this one], west of Sweeney Creek or Peak B at el. 3310 5 miles to the south at Rosebud Buttes, as you tell me that I should be looking at something in excess of 3300 feet and this is the only one I can find.
I have measured again both peaks distances from the Yellowstone and distance from R-18 [Indian village sighted 18 miles up Rosebud]
Peak A is approx. 14 miles from Yellowstone [plus I add on 1 mile downriver from ravine to arrive opp. base camp] = 15, and 8 miles from R-18, visibility along Rosebud creek probably about 30 miles from it's mouth [my guess]...
Peak B is 19 miles from Yellowstone, plus I add on 1 mile downriver from ravine to arrive opp. base camp = 20, and 8 miles from R-18 [same as above], visibility along Rosebud Creek probably well in excess of 30 miles from it's mouth [my guess]...
[Bradley stated earlier on May 16 visit that they had a ''fair view from it's mouth upward for over 30 miles''. and later that the village was 8-10 miles from lookout]...
Bradley writes that they started out from base camp, May 27, which must have been at 4.30 am, as he claims a half hour in crossing river to south side to arrive at 5 am. Up river 1 mile to enter ravine [Butte Creek], then heading for the same spot he arrived at on the 16th.
travelling cautiously he writes that after 4 hours march ''having travelled some 14 miles'', they reach the foot of the hills at the same place as before...
this ''4 hours march'' I shall take it to mean from when they left camp at 4.30 am, otherwise it doesn't fit, so at 8.30 they arrive at the base of the mountains.
Leaving the detachment in a sheltered cove, a short trip to the lookout - - to arrive at 8.45 am. He claims they spent half an hour looking, so at 9.15 they left the peak and returned to detachment in sheltered cove at 9.30. He then claims a fast 2 hour ride which brought them back to the Yellowstone , and he gives the arrival time of 11.30 am...
using these times and distances, I make it that a round trip from Yellowstone opposite base camp to:-
Peak A - outward bound 15 miles approx 4.2 mph = 3-1/2 hours - allowing cautious travel, with a faster return trip of 15 miles at 7.5 mph... = 2 hours.
Peak B - outward bound 20 miles approx 5.7 mph = 3-1/2 hours - allowing cautious travel, with a faster return trip of 20 miles at 10 mph = 2 hours....
the horses should have a rest period of 1 hour in between trips...
...I've never ridden a horse, I think you must have done. Using your knowledge and considering the terrain involved, which of these two options sound the most feasible to you...?
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Post by rosebud on Nov 23, 2012 19:39:00 GMT -6
Peak A - outward bound 15 miles approx 4.2 mph = 3-1/2 hours - allowing cautious travel, with a faster return trip of 15 miles at 7.5 mph... = 2 hours.
Peak B - outward bound 20 miles approx 5.7 mph = 3-1/2 hours - allowing cautious travel, with a faster return trip of 20 miles at 10 mph = 2 hours....
the horses should have a rest period of 45 minutes in between trips...
I won't say peak B is not possible but I would take Peak A.
Bradley states a little later in the book that it took him 5 hours to reach the peak. But I think you are close. I would say that even the 4.2 mph might be a touch too fast. The caution used would mean they would stop while the scouts took a peak around the corners and over little ridges. Then they advance and stop again.
Even when they say they made a fast return. They would probably trot a mile or so and walk a 1/4 to 1/2 mile then trot a few miles and walk again. Highly unlikely they would try and trot the whole distance. At least not on a horse you need to use again tomorrow and the next day and the next day.
When Bradley returned from the peak he spent some time trying to get some of the soldiers to go back with him to see the village. I don't know how much time was spent but scouts were dead set against it. They wanted to get the heck out of there. So I think they could have spent longer than 45 minutes in that area. More like an hour. When they say it took 2 hours to return, it does not mean that an hour and 30 or 45 minutes won't also fit. But it could also be an 2 hours and 15 minutes. I am comfortable with leaving the river at 5:00am departure and 11:30 return. Peak A can fit all the variables easily. Point B does not leave enough time if you ask me.
When Bradley got back to camp he expected Gibbon to advance on the camp that same day. He was disappointed when that did not take place.
I took some pictures today. They turned out a lot better than I expected. Now if I knew how to get these on this board....Might have to e-mail them to someone who is more computer literate than I am.
If I don't figure out how to post the pictures I might sent you a pm. and send them some other way.
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Post by rosebud on Nov 23, 2012 19:58:11 GMT -6
I gave up and sent you a pm Rosebud
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Post by Margaret on Nov 24, 2012 5:49:35 GMT -6
....I think you might have to use something like 'Photobucket' or 'Flickr', anyway I am really looking forward to these photos so I've sent you a p.m. also. If I have your permission it might be possible for me to transfer them to this thread, I could have a go if you wish....
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Post by Margaret on Nov 24, 2012 12:07:25 GMT -6
... I won't say peak B is not possible but I would take Peak A. Bradley states a little later in the book that it took him 5 hours to reach the peak. ...Bradley confounded things by making that comment, which I feel sure was done for exaggerated effect, what else could it be?... he might have thought to himself, he was ready at 4.30 to cross the river, and at 9.30 he had finished his spying and ready to return, which then took him 2 hours.... something like that. It's unusable otherwise... You're right that I hadn't accounted for any parleying with his detachment at the base of the peak, but like you say a few minutes here and there wouldn't make much difference... I am going to discount Peak B, not only for the reasons you've stated above, but the main contra indicator for me is that it is part of the formidable ridge he saw from Peak A, and it overlooks Tongue River. I even thought it might be his 2nd lookout where he saw the Tongue village at first, but it's too far west for that.... It's just the wrong place, which is a pity as that whole area just seems to look more the part. I even found a high peak there with a secluded cove enveloped on 3 sides, just as he said - although there are lots of these of course, it just looked so right.... Can I post that image of Butte Creek ravine you sent me? thank you,
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Post by rosebud on Nov 24, 2012 12:16:17 GMT -6
Yes you can. I can send more if you want. Post as many as you like. Rosebud
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Post by Margaret on Nov 24, 2012 16:16:36 GMT -6
..courtesy of 'rosebud', here is a photo of the ''deep, dry ravine'' spoken of by Lt Bradley, that they negotiated on their way to viewing the hostile camp in the Rosebud valley, May 27 1876... I love this image [apart from the phone lines] and we get some perspective of it's size with the little animals in the foregound [not quite sure what they are...] still today, it looks deep and dry.... and now known as Butte Creek... it must have given them a fair degree of seclusion on this dangerous movement into hostile country... Bradley had with him 19 others - 13 troopers, 5 Crows, and Tom LeForge. 'White Man Runs Him' and 'LeForgey' did the 'wolfing', that is, scouting the distant hilltops before the others came up...
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