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Post by rosebud on Nov 24, 2012 16:35:15 GMT -6
I will get some without the power lines. On a clear day. Might even get one later when there is snow. might make a nice Christmas card
.also I have found by revisiting John Gray's Centennial Campaign, and very pleased about this as I had completely forgotten it, that he also finds Bradley's two lookouts to be very much the same as I have stated, especially the first.
Apparently Indian informants claim that on leaving the Tongue River they camped on the divide before going over to the Rosebud.
Gray guesses at 'Gravey Creek' headwaters which is conveniently situated just above the el. 3025 ridge overlooking the Tongue and easily accessible from Sixmile Creek.
I feel that Gray used mileages to get his first location. As you can now see, this would mean that Bradley needed to bypass these Buttes and go another 5 miles to the lookout #1. I don't think there is anyone who would not use these as a 1st lookout.
Even if they planned to look into the Rosebud from a new location they would not pass up this opportunity.
Grays location could be location #2 and then on to the Tongue river for location #3
Bradley would need to mention 3 locations and he does not. For that reason alone I would completely eliminate Grays 1st location.
This might cause you to rearrange some of your Indian travel routes to the Rosebud. If you recall, Bradley describe plenty of recent activity before he reaches the Buttes on his second trip, dead buffalo all over the flats and an Indian trail. Probably why he was so careful on his way to the Buttes. Was he looking for Indians? or were they already in the Buttes watching him. He did not know. Not until he reached the Buttes. Bradley's scouts and his men were sure ready to get the heck back to camp. With good reason I would guess.
Rosebud
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Post by Margaret on Nov 25, 2012 6:44:36 GMT -6
...yes I agree with that actually and it's very good advice rosebud and I'm reviewing my take on this constantly....
the trouble with having lookout 1 at el. 3072 is that it meets the mileages exactly if we take it as the crow flies so to speak, but it's close to several watercourses and Bradley doesn't mention any, I'm inclined to think it's too close to Sweeney Creek.
I've been studying these buttes again on google maps and it's becoming easier to see the difficulties they presented but of course he had already been through them once before on May 16.
You say he wouldn't have bypassed an opportunity to use one as a lookout, perhaps so but he doesn't tell us this and to find this 'promising peak' he refers to, we have to stick to certain constraints that he imposes, i.e. it's got to be no more than 10 miles from R-18... 8 miles would be better... I can't see how he could pick out the detail from any further than that, it gives us a radius to work with...
There isn't a peak in excess of 3000 feet in this area apart from the el. 3072 further on, otherwise we have to take him to the Tongue River ridge and we know that's way too far... However, what I think I can reach a decision on is that the Indian trail must have gone through these buttes, - he gives such good descriptions here, with their narrow defiles and suchlike - that's the ones directly south of the Butte creek ravine, - I hope I've got this right - he refers to them as the 'Little Wolf Mountains', which means they must then have aimed for the lower Rosebud, as Wooden Leg states they did... and the Crows reported as such about the warrior party they almost ran into on the 18th...
I think I shall discount both Peak's A and B referred to earlier, and simply do what most other's do with this and state his lookout was ''somewhere in the Wolf Mountains, east of Rosebud creek''... other than getting on horseback and riding out there, I don't see how anyone can be more definite... do you?
I look forward to some more photos from you in due course, it should be quite clear that I simply adore the place, although I have read that this part of Montana has only 3 seasons, Winter, Mud and Drought.....
...a little harsh, that...
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Post by rosebud on Nov 25, 2012 18:24:42 GMT -6
the trouble with having lookout 1 at el. 3072 is that it meets the mileages exactly if we take it as the crow flies so to speak, but it's close to several watercourses and Bradley doesn't mention any, I'm inclined to think it's too close to Sweeney Creek.
Not real sure what you are saying. With the exception of the Rosebud, these are all dry creeks with occasional springs.
I've been studying these buttes again on google maps and it's becoming easier to see the difficulties they presented but of course he had already been through them once before on May 16.
You say he wouldn't have bypassed an opportunity to use one as a lookout, perhaps so but he doesn't tell us this and to find this 'promising peak' he refers to, we have to stick to certain constraints that he imposes, i.e. it's got to be no more than 10 miles from R-18... 8 miles would be better... I can't see how he could pick out the detail from any further than that, it gives us a radius to work with...
R-18? what are you talking about? Is it a map location or something? I am going to take a wild guess that R stands for Radius.
The Rosebud Buttes stand out like a sore thumb. They can be seen from Forsyth to the mouth of Moon Creek From North of the Yellowstone, they can be seen from more than 40 miles.
There isn't a peak in excess of 3000 feet in this area apart from the el. 3072 further on, otherwise we have to take him to the Tongue River ridge and we know that's way too far... However, what I think I can reach a decision on is that the Indian trail must have gone through these buttes, - he gives such good descriptions here, with their narrow defiles and suchlike - that's the ones directly south of the Butte creek ravine, - I hope I've got this right -
I think he was describing these before he reached the Buttes, that leaves only North of the Buttes. Those defiles to the South are bad..real bad. Don't think anyone would travel in these. I will get some pictures for you. Google does not do it justice.
he refers to them as the 'Little Wolf Mountains', which means they must then have aimed for the lower Rosebud, as Wooden Leg states they did... and the Crows reported as such about the warrior party they almost ran into on the 18th...
I think I shall discount both Peak's A and B referred to earlier, and simply do what most other's do with this and state his lookout was ''somewhere in the Wolf Mountains, east of Rosebud creek''... other than getting on horseback and riding out there, I don't see how anyone can be more definite... do you?
No reason to get rid of location B it is probably close enough.
A county road goes through these buttes. No permission needed. I think they are located on state land. You can't drive off the road but you can walk. These locations are easy to walk to.
I look forward to some more photos from you in due course, it should be quite clear that I simply adore the place, although I have read that this part of Montana has only 3 seasons, Winter, Mud and Drought.....
...a little harsh, that...
This year we skipped the mud.
Rosebud
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Post by Margaret on Nov 26, 2012 5:15:43 GMT -6
...I'm saying that this high point is perhaps too close to Sweeney Creek and I'm not convinced he was travelling so close to that stream.
I can understand them being dry creeks especially during summer, but I would have thought he might have mentioned something to the effect of crossing one or being close to one, but he doesn't...
R-18
I always assume people are familiar with John Gray's works and he used this term to denote the mileages up Rosebud Creek where the village moved, i.e. 18 miles up it... the one Bradley sighted...
The trouble with being so far away and using only maps, is that local terms don't always appear.
Rosebud Buttes for instance, are not on my map named as such, so I've had to work out just what you mean by them, as you are local to the area and I am not.... I think I know where you mean but admit it is confusing at times...
...they do look bad, almost like what people refer to as 'badlands' I imagine... do you think it would have stopped an Indian village from passing through? perhaps to the left as they would have approached it..? I notice Butte Creek Road has cut a way through to the right [if you are looking from the Yellowstone]....
there do seem to be ways through, I've tried to follow some on Google and they look feasible.... and just like what Bradley seemed to be talking about...
To view R-18 from 8 miles away he would have had to have traversed this area wouldn't he? and to know it well enough to skip back to the river in 2 hours...
Peak B I now dismiss completely, it's too far, could not be ridden back in 2 hours and overlooks Tongue River. It cannot be the one...
That county road you refer to must be Butte Creek Road as I just noted...? I never went down it but right now I very much wish I did....
I think I've finished my 'trek' with this village having moved them around all over the place... I might post it later...
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Post by rosebud on Nov 26, 2012 9:38:40 GMT -6
I think I get what you are saying. It gets confusing when there are two trips and one uses the same location. How about we try this and see if we can stay on track lookouts 1A and 1B for his first trip lookout 2A for his second trip, with the understanding that 1A and 2A are the same location. I would say Grays 1A is wrong because it does not match Bradley's description of 2A. But I would say that Bradley's 1B is the same or close enough to your 1B, my 1B and Grays 1B. We don't need a 2B because Bradley only went to a single lookout on his second trip. Gray is not the only one that makes these mistakes. In the book To the Edge of Darkness.by James Willert......On page 95 there is a map. They use 3072 as 1A and they show Bradley's return route from 1B back to the command at the Little Porcupine as moving North of the Buttes. This would mean the Buttes would be to Bradley's left as he returned. It also shows that they crossed the Rosebud lower than the day before. That is just the opposite of what Bradley stated. On his return trip #1, he states that he kept the wooded ridge to his RIGHT and crossed the Rosebud HIGHER UP than the day before. I think I've finished my 'trek' with this village having moved them around all over the place... I might post it later... I think you are spot on  I will need more pictures to explain the rest of your questions. Rosebud |
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Post by Margaret on Nov 26, 2012 15:12:10 GMT -6
I understand you here rosebud but I hope I have some startling news, that I have found Bradley's peak. I just know you will find an argument against, but I think you might have to drive a round trip of some 25 miles to prove the point....
I post this in manageable parts, disinterested readers can easily skip, but I'd like to think there may be someone in the future who might like to compare notes - I hope so....
...I've been trying to piece together this Indian village movement, over about 10 days May 18-27, using Marquis's book ''Wooden Leg: Warrior who fought Custer'', Lt. Bradley's ''March of the Montana Column'', John Gray's 'Centennial' and 'Custer's Last Campaign', plus Tom leForge's ''Memoirs of a White Crow Indian''...also information and advice from certain helpful members of this board...
I don't think there's anything new here that hasn't been done before, except possibly Bradley's lookout points, but this is my own interpretation and open to correction....
My reasons for doing this are to satisfy myself that this village did actually camp at R-7, that's 7 miles up Rosebud Creek, as it's first port of call on that stream, and not at R-18. A number of writers past and present suggest a doubt here and I wanted to do some work on it...
Marquis got his interviews with Wooden Leg and other Cheyenne in the 1920's over a period of time, and then put it all together in chronological order - published 1931. It seems they had to use sign language mostly, to understand each other. Surely a lot must be lost in translation which makes me question some of the replies attributed to Wooden Leg...
However, part 1 follows:-
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Post by Margaret on Nov 26, 2012 15:15:35 GMT -6
Part 1,
''going on west from Tongue River we stopped several days, perhaps 4 or 5 sleeps , at the upper part of a stream we knew as Wood Creek - it is the first creek of importance west of Tongue River and flowing I believe into Elk River'' [Yellowstone]
...''the men were hunting...big parties killed lots of buffalo in this neighbourhood...there were many thousands of animals here....a council settled where we should go next at each move...the moves depended on reports of hunting parties or scouts....they learned and reported where was most of such game...many young men were anxious to go fighting the soldiers....''
It's difficult to know exactly which stream Wooden Leg is referring to here, by the name of Wood Creek. Gray thought it was present Graveyard Creek, but the first creek 'of importance west of Tongue' looks to me like the picturesque and heavily wooded Moon Creek which has headwaters near the divide but a little east.
On leaving the Tongue May 17, it seems they ascended more to the north, as no trails going westward were noted by the Reno Reconnaisance, and it would have been a short hike to the headwaters of Moon Creek which seems suitably placed for buffalo hunting to the west, and a direct movement thereto if conditions were found to be more favourable...
I note that on May 19 4 Crow scouts on a pony stealing foray to the Tongue, witnessed the movement of ''several hundred Sioux warriors'', so they claimed, coming from the direction of Tongue River, heading for the lower Rosebud. I believe they came from this camp that was still on upper Moon Creek and for reasons given by Wooden Leg, repeated here:-
''the moves depended on reports of hunting parties or scouts....they learned and reported where was most of such game...many young men were anxious to go fighting the soldiers....''
I do not believe this so called warrior force seen by the Crows, was an advance guard for a village already moving directly to the Rosebud, as if often implied with dramatic effect, rather a smaller but still sizeable scouting party roaming the area for it's suitability for the village planning on moving nearby, for it's ponies and accessibility to game...
the report of ''several hundred'' I believe to be a Crow exaggeration as they would need to explain why they chickened out/detoured and came back empty handed...
...it's a report taken up by and extolled by virtually everyone as being a 'given', based on information by these 4 Crows... who I think had other motives in the telling...specifically to keep the army focussed - already one failed attempt at crossing and no other troops yet in the area....
-end of part 1-
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Post by Margaret on Nov 26, 2012 15:17:50 GMT -6
Part 2 - Bradley's 'lookout'
When Bradley passed this area May 27 the village had already moved through, with others following on behind, hence all the trails of hundreds of ponies, and buffalo carcasses...''no more than a week old, some less''...
...this 'promising peak' that formed Bradley's lookout no. 1 on May 16 and later on May 27 has been a great puzzle to me but on which I think I have reached a result...
..through careful calculation, I believe it is the one situated close to [just east of], a present obscure dirt track which leads directly south off Butte Creek road [rd 313], at a point where that road makes a sharp left turn to the east. This dirt track travels close by at the base of the mountains east of Rosebud Creek.
To be more precise, I place this peak just east of the headwaters of East Cottonwood Creek, and even more obscurely, just west of a minor little tributary of what might be termed the south fork of an unnamed north east flowing, and mostly dry, tributary of Sweeney Creek....if any interested reader is still with me here, then you deserve a medal....
On Google Maps it shows as a buff/white topped slighly rounded or rectangular peak with a 'sheltered cove' below...it's outcrops forming a wavey 'W'....and at the edge of a ridge marked 3000 feet...
It sits about 8 miles from the village at R-18, about 13-14 miles from the Yellowstone river, and 10 miles directly west of his Tongue River lookout... all these distances are indicated by Bradley...
I no longer accept el. 3072 near Sweeney Creek, put forward by writers Gray and Willert...
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Post by Margaret on Nov 26, 2012 15:22:09 GMT -6
Part 3,
''after Wood Creek we went to the upper part of what we called Sioux Creek....here we stayed one sleep and followed the same direction next day...'' [i.e. toward the lower Rosebud]...
... another difficult one to fathom but I put them now for one night, May 20 on mid-upper Sweeney Creek.
This creek was known in earlier times as 'Wood Brook' suspiciously similar to the Wood Creek referred to by Wooden Leg, but it has a little tributary called 'Indian Creek' and I wonder if whole or part of this stream might have been known to the Cheyenne as Sioux Creek.
Also on this day a Sioux war party was active on the Yellowstone, having crossed to the north bank opposite the mouth of this creek.... not conclusive but possible evidence that the village may have been moving on it....
Directly from here going west the village will arrive at the Rosebud.
On moving the village to Rosebud Creek, which I put at May 21, Wooden Leg tells us they first camped about 7 miles up from the Yellowstone which would imply they got there from an entry point on the lower part of this creek.
This would correspond to the ploughed up trails through narrow defiles caused by this moving village, that Bradley would see on May 27th...
At the time of his interviews, Wooden Leg says a ranch now stood at this point [7 miles up], which was known as the James Kennedy place .
[James Kennedy ran a toll road north of Yellowstone at one time, then sold up and moved to the Rosebud Valley, ''near it's mouth'', according to a newspaper report in 1931 announcing his death].
The Uncpapa camp started about this place Wooden Leg tells us, and out across the present highway road and to the benchland further east with the Cheyenne camp about a mile and a half further upstream. I put this camp starting about opposite the mouth of West Rosebud Creek....
On Google Maps today, I can see a present habitation on this site, right next to the road and a part of the valley that is quite wide with the creek running through the middle. All the camps were on the east side stretching out to the benchland...
Wooden Leg goes on.... ''six or seven sleeps I believe we stayed here then moved up the valley 12 miles...''
... I can give them 5 sleeps here from May 21, moving them on up the Rosebud on May 26, comfortably in time for Bradley to spy the camp on the 27th from lookout 1, [about 8 miles to the northeast].
So, in conclusion, I have to run with Wooden Leg's assertion, that camp no. 1 on the Rosebud was at 7 miles, and that camp no. 2 was at mile 18 which was the one spied on by Bradley.
This supercedes an earlier post I made claiming their first camping place was at mile 18 via Eagle Creek, I think that was incorrect, and John Gray omitted this first camp at mile 7 in his later work 'Custer's Last Campaign', perhaps for the sake of brevity - or because none of the troopers moving through later, appears to have noticed it...
...the end...
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Post by rosebud on Nov 26, 2012 15:57:21 GMT -6
Helford
I don't need to waste my time with a 25 mile round trip, there is no need to even argue with you. In fact I think you are in the right spot. I think there are a choice of points in this area and your location is as good as any. I will make a point to try and get some pictures from your location if you wish.
Here is some more ammo if you run into people that disagree with your location
Bradley states that it took him 4 or 5 hours to reach the base of the Wolf Mountains. 4 hours if he starts his stopwatch after he is on the South side of the Yellowstone....5 if he is using leaving camp as a reference...both still work
This means he is in the Buttes around 9:00. No problem yet.
Then a person reads this....
The party rode another four hours, traversing fourteen miles, and finally arrived at the base of the Wolf Mountains from where Bradley had observed the village along the TONGUE River May 16th.
Wow...This is where everyone messed up
9:00 am reaches the Buttes....another 4 hours means he will be looking at the village at 1:00 PM at the earliest....spend 1/2 hour and he heads back to the river at 1:30 at the earliest....Another 2 hours to the river is 3:30 in the afternoon.
Bradley is at the Yellowstone at 11:30 so this just can't work. I feel they made a mistake and reused that first 4 hours. It would not take 4 hours from the Buttes to the location at 3072.
We also know that he was looking into the Rosebud on the second trip and not the tongue.
Now for the Indian village a R7...We have it at R8. No big deal R7-R8 Same location different discription.
I like it Helford
Rosebud
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Post by Margaret on Nov 27, 2012 6:39:42 GMT -6
... This means he is in the Buttes around 9:00. No problem yet. Then a person reads this.... The party rode another four hours, traversing fourteen miles, and finally arrived at the base of the Wolf Mountains from where Bradley had observed the village along the TONGUE River May 16th. Wow...This is where everyone messed up ... ...I'm wondering if that paragraph is in another book, maybe Willert's? as it's not in Bradley's. Someone has messed up there... the writer is obviously talking about Bradley's party, isn't he?... ...I see the confusion that this would engender because it's not in Bradley's book... I'm delighted that you agree with me on the location and I must thank you for your local knowledge and for putting me in the right direction. I was never really happy with the other one put forward.... I've been wanting to do this for some 12 years and never thought I would get to the bottom of it, of course Google Maps has been a godsend.... fortunately the images are very clear over the area at 500 and 1000 feet... thank you again for your time, and your interest here, |
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Post by Margaret on Nov 28, 2012 10:29:30 GMT -6
I don't think you are hereabouts any longer 'rosebud' but I haven't quite finished with this yet... so I shall ramble on a little further just to clarify something for my own purposes...
...going back to his first sortie May 15/16 after being deceived by the Crows, ending up in some 'grassy ravine'.... he eventually reaches his lookout 1 where he views the Rosebud.
After a 3 hour observation - I presume he also means rest, feed, coffee, whatever.... they ''saddled up and moved on'', this time to the Tongue River lookout, via a ''ridge of considerable elevation''.... ''ascending the summit of a wooded ridge, whose pine timber screened us completely for several miles''....
I am now satisfied that this wooded ridge is the elevation marked 3310 on my map, [the one we both referred to earlier variously as peak B or 1b], about 8 miles south-eastwards in a direct line from lookout 1.
If it's appearance then was anything like today it is still heavily wooded and would screen anyone for several miles I should think.
It overlooks Tongue River but the village at T-30 [that's 30 miles up the Tongue] would not have been visible from here, so the Crows led them on, down and up, across this ridge north-eastwards to the next high point.
''About 4 o'clock in the afternoon the two Crows in front signaled that they had made a discovery. They were then on the summit of a ridge....''
...this is where I place them at Bradley's lookout 2, el. 3025 at the head of Sixmile Creek... The T-30 village being down below, a little to the left...
It is also here that herds of buffalo came careering towards them, within 20 yards...
They stayed on this ridge spying the camp for 2 hours before making their way back, stopping after 1 hour to feed horses, finding some water, then passing again those ''difficult wooded heights'' [el. 3310]...
travelling all night, crossing the Rosebud higher up than the first crossing, and back to their camp then near the mouth of Little Porcupine creek....
Lt James Bradley - at times I find him a moralising hypocrite, but undoubtedly a bold, brave intelligence aware Mah-ish-ta-shee-da, and in this way, perhaps a bit too good for some of those around him...
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Post by Margaret on Nov 29, 2012 12:47:24 GMT -6
...I need here to add a correction to the Indian's point of entry to the Rosebud Valley circa May 21..., as I interpret it...
When Bradley reached his lookout on May 27, - and I am perfectly happy about this location - although of course weathering over the years might make the view today redundant, not to mention building work along the Rosebud valley road, but one thing he doesn't appear to mention in his wonderful account, is that of seeing the tracks of a moving village, rather innumerable [hundreds of] pony tracks criss crossing everywhere and many buffalo kills, and at different times, indicating large scale hunting, probably when the village was both camped, as I maintain, on the headwaters of Sweeney/Beaver Creek for one night [May 20] - and from the Rosebud camp at mile 7-8 [May 21-25]...
...therefore I suggest the village moved over using trails about 2 miles above Bradley's lookout and whilst he didn't go any further on this occasion, if he had he would have stumbled across what must have been a wide trail of lodgepole tracks to support his 'immense' village...
I would imagine much of this incoming trail would have been hidden from view from the lookout, as it would have been around a bend in the buttes jutting out at that point, however I expect he might have seen some evidence from far off...
...and if they had passed through lower down he would surely have crossed the village trail, so I conclude the village entered the Rosebud valley initially, down East Cottonwood Creek arriving opposite the mouth of South Fork Cottonwood Creek, at mile R-12, then moved downstream on the east bank, about 4 or 5 miles to camp at R7-8.
...it conforms, if taken literally, to Wooden Leg's claim that after camping 1 night on 'upper Sioux Creek' [which I place at upper Sweeney/Beaver Creek], having come west from upper Moon Creek, they went ''in the same direction''.... this places them directly in East Cottonwood Creek.... and just above Bradley's lookout...
...it is also noted that when moving back up the valley May 26 they bypassed this area to camp at R18-20, between west flowing Eagle Creek and Udee Creek flowing from the east... which coincides with Bradley finding them on May 27, 8-10 miles away - he cannot be sure of the distance, and the reason for doubt I think rests with the trajectory he is on, that is NE/SW [Lookout/Village]...
...but I think he guessed correctly the lower part of this 400 lodge village - separated but within supporting distance - to be about 8 miles and the upper part nearer 10...
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