Smith copping one at Ford B

[Yan Taylor]

Hi Guys, I have posted this question before on Rock Drill III, and Dan said it would make a good topic to start off a new thread, so here goes;

If E Company did move down to ford B and Lt. Smith was hit,
(I know that the Indians say an Officer (maybe one of the Custer’s could also be a candidate for this man) was shot and fell from his horse at the ford)
why would his body be found of LSH?, if all the command moved to Calhoun hill for a re-jig, why would GAC take a wounded Officer along when (if) he went North to Ford D, if Capt. Keogh had set up his Company HQ in the swale, wouldn’t this be a good place to leave Smith so that his wounds could be treated?.

Ian.

[fred]

Ah-h-h, Ian, you tweak my interest!

Well, here is my take.

Custer went to Ford B. He did so with a split command... Custer and HQ, along with F Company (Yates) rode along the top of the Luce Ridge extension to the edge of the bluffs above Ford B. (I call that, "Custer's Bluff," which I hope does not drive my friend Dark Cloud wild with more "naming" of terrain features.) There are sources for that.

At the same time, he sent Smith and E Company back into MTC to ride flank. (Let's not forget there were Indians on the east bank of the river, on the bluffs between Weir Point and MTC... not many, but still some hostile forces.) There are sources for that, as well.

Custer arrived at the edge of the bluff and Smith arrived on the flats between the ford and "Custer's Bluff." The distance between the river and the bluff Custer was standing is about 250 yards. And there are sources for that.

Most writers claim there were only about a dozen or so warriors on the river's west bank, but enough research into this thing convinces me there were more, maybe as many as 30 or 40... many of whom I can account for by name. More sources available.

There are at least three accounts-- I believe-- claiming an "officer" was shot and fell from his horse. One of those accounts we should minimize because it is from White Cow Bulls**t, the red copy of Theodore Goldin, but the others bear respect. Officers were easy to spot and the Indians seemed to key in on them. I am not sure that was because of their recognition of an officer's importance as much as their uniqueness in dress style, but whatever.... Smith was known to wear a buckskin blouse, but he wore standard regulation trousers that day, along with gaitered shoes... not boots. So the recognition of an officer, per se, would not be that unusual. And of course, there are sources for this.

Also, understand not too long ago I refused to accept any of this story, but DC's continual harangues, both publicly and privately, some additional work, and some common sense have led me to change my opinion. DC thinks this officer was Custer, but that I reject categorically. (That's for those of you who think I am too intransigent in my thinking to change.)

If Smith was recognized as "important," then I believe he could have been picked out and wounded.

While the wound may not have been fatal, it had to be debilitating, certainly, and Smith's own character-- not Custer's decisions-- made him continue on with his command. I would think circumstances dictated that decision, as well. Why saddle Keogh with wounded when Keogh would be on the move shortly? So we can assume the wound was not that severe, at least not immediately. My timing work tells me some 69 minutes elapsed between the time Smith may have been wounded to the time the final remnants of E Company arrived on LSH. By that time, Algernon Smith was pretty well spent, probably having lost a good deal of blood.

And remember, Ian, Algernon Smith was a tremendous soldier. This was a man who could barely use his left arm because it had been so badly mangled in the Civil War. Smith was very well liked across both camps and many considered him a very able soldier. The man did not lack grit.

Obviously, all of this has sources to back it up.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[quincannon]

Ian: So many variables, not enough substance. If an officer was hit Smith would be a prime suspect. If he was hit, just how bad? Lord was with the command group. A wounded offficer were he able to travel would likely be with him. By extention, that would probably mean that the wound was not to severe. Speculation about Smith being wounded centers on the person in the buckskin jacket and the fact that Smith was not found with his company. Both are circumstantial. It is putting two and two together and coming up with five. Could have happened. Might have happened. My money would be on another read of circumstances.

[Yan Taylor]

Thanks Fred, you have more sources (sauces) then Gordon Ramsey, which is a good thing because it helps me to get my swede around this topic, Chuck, I know I am speculating here, Smith was found dead on LSH, and I don’t think they recognised the body of Lt. Sturgis who was 2nd in/Co of Smiths Company, so we can only guess if Smith was well enough to resume command.

If (and I mean if because I am in Fred’s camp over what might of happened after the ford B incident) Custer and his command were in fact driven from the river and subsequently to their demise on LSH, could Keoghs wing have been sacrificed to allow the HQ and E and F Companies to withdraw to LSH.

Ian.

[fred]

Ian,

Most of the LBH is circumstantial; it is all we have.

If, however, two men say they saw a bunch of soldiers on gray horses near the water and one of them-- in a buckskin jacket-- got shot there, then we have a pretty good idea it was one of two people, since they were the only ones with buckskin jackets. If others claim one of those two had a buckskin jacket, but he wasn't wearing it an hour and a half earlier and the day hadn't gotten any cooler, then we can make a further assumption that guy wasn't the one who was shot at the ford. Furthermore, if the body of the one we now assume was shot, was eventually found in a place other than where all his men were found, we can make another assumption: that he may have been too weak to lead those men further.

Circumstantial? Yep! But it is at least circumstantial, supported by reason, logic, and several accounts. Anything else is supported only by theory and someone else's rendition of logic.

This is also an interesting subject because of the overall and larger context in which it which it needs to fit. If we substitute Custer for Smith, then a whole series of other issues arises, all of which face the same daunting supporting tasks that cannot be properly explained by the accounts of Indians who were there. Again, the simplest of solutions is usually the best, especially when there is a fair amount of first-hand commentary supporting it... even though it remains somewhat circumstantial.

The danger with historical events such as the LBH, is very much as DC has howled about for years. We can have minor clashes and somewhat different theories which may not quite meet the sniff test of a 12-person jury, but we need to formulate our theories within a rational and reasonable framework. By throwing in utter nonsense, i. e., the Thompson tales; horses trained to dodge arrows; fantasia villages, messages never sent, orders never given, etc; we distort history and allow a dangerous and fallacious element to enter the discussion. It is this kind of stupidity that must be avoided, for it presents those who do not know with nothing but lies.

"A," or "B," or "C" being shot at a ford is merely a discussion. It does, however, lead into other areas and those areas must then be addressed, as well. Remember too, people have gone to jail based solely on circumstantial evidence. Sometimes it is too overwhelming to ignore. Is that the case here? Probably not; but to me, it is too compelling to ignore. I hang my hat on Smith being the man shot there.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[quincannon]

Ian: Don't think so. Can't see where there would have been any need to do so.

Most likely scenario is that the two elements were split by design, and were overwhelmed in sequence.

Normally when one element is sacrificed to enable the extraction of another. it is the smaller of the two that is sacrificed and the larger of the two that is extracted. For instance a scenario that has L on Calhoun Hill and the rest around LSH and evidence that the main attack came from the south and west might make one conclude something along the lines of a delay and extraction

[quincannon]

Fred makes a good case. The wound need not have been debilitating. It could easily have been a grazing wound of not much consequence (that is also speculation on my part), but enough to unhorse him. There is no evidence that Smith did not retain command of Company E. There is evidence that he was not found with the bulk of Company E. There is still wiggle room, not much, but some.

[Yan Taylor]

Many thanks to the both of you, sounds like Smith was one tough cookie, imagine being shot, falling off a horse probably onto rocks, and having to ride uphill to be treated, you can just imagine him saying ‘’ I am ok, Doc just patch me up, I just want to be with my Company’’.

Ian.

[benteen]

Not to be contrary, but didnt the warrior who said he shot the soldier in the buckskin say that the soldier fell into the water.

Be Well
Dan

[fred]

Dan,

You are certainly not contrary... and I believe you are correct, but I believe as well, that story was from White Cow Bull.

I have accounts from three or four other Indians who were there or heard it from some who were, that an "officer" was shot at the ford. Let's not forget, as well, that one of Yates' men lost control of his horse and the nag stampeded into the river; that was it for him.

I might also suspect Smith didn't dismount his entire command... Indians claimed the soldiers dismounted, but don't say whether all of them did or not, so I attach a measure of credence to the whole story... and I've managed to wipe most of the egg off my face from my previous protestations of no one being wounded there.

Ian,

I doubt Smith fell onto rocks. I don't recall it being very rocky.

Best wishes,
Fred.

Attachments:

[fred]

Another Ford B shot:

Best wishes,
Fred.

Attachments:

[fred]

... and one more. That is the so-called Boyer's Bluff on the left, the bluff Boyer never went to. This picture is taken from well in front of the base of what I have called Custer's Bluff, so you can see how far back from the ford Custer really was. I am even in front of the access road which is between me and the bluff Custer stood on.

Best wishes,
Fred.

Attachments:

[benteen]

Thanks Captain, is it safe to assume that researchers like yourself put white Cow Bull on the same side of the ledger as Curly, Pvt Thompson and a few others

Be Well
Dan

[montrose]

What is odd, is that I formed a similar theory about Ford B, before the LBH fire.

I wrote a paper on LBH in HS, and found it among my father's belongings after he died.

The only thing I am not sure on, is whether Smith was wounded at Ford B, or Ford D. Indian accountsare very fungible.

I think Fred's theory that Smith was lightly wounded, and 90 minutes later disabled by blood loss is very compelling. One thing the docs have been improving in GWOT is faster response to blood loss. Way too may people die from bleeding out. We have a new medical gauze, forgot technical name, that is just crazy on how it can help stop bleeding.

(There is a thriving internet site, where folks from one rotation sell it to folks for next rotation. I remember our command IG investigated, intending to prosecute, and discovered that the rules were only to sell to fellow soldiers. Site was managed by Special Forces medics. Our JAG was very eager to prosecute, our CG said if it saved a single life, it was worth it).

So I think the scenario laid out by Fred is very compelling. I view it as the most probable theory I have seen.

[quincannon]

Does not a wounding at Ford D open up a couple of other possabilities as to the identity of the person wounded?

If the incident took place at Ford D there very well could be other, non related reasons why Smith was not found with the bulk of Company E.