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Post by fred on Sept 14, 2012 5:57:08 GMT -6
OK... I need to try to get a few things straightened out here... First of all, Chuck, I really don't need a lecture on map drills. I know you mean well, but all that is unnecessary. Second... I have responded the way I have because Rosebud declared this thread, "dead"... or some such comment, and my posts are responding to what I have believed to be people's actual beliefs. No more, no less. BC... there is evidence of a move toward Ford D... for what it is worth. Not confirming evidence, but directional evidence. Now, for Will. My views on the valley fight is based on your own arguments. ... as discussed with you... remember that, Will. I have taken your comments into serious consideration. You are the only person who has read that chapter and I have since modified it with your commentary in mind. Absolutely! But this came past the half-way mark. That the original line facing north, had to swing around to face west?No. M Company began its march facing west. So did A - G, who then swung north. This whole thing is where the confusion lies. BC mentioned the Garryowen Loop. The Loop was dry that summer and it was those channels that allowed the Indians ingress into Otter Creek. Reno stopped one loop before the Garryowen. The Vaughn stuff some clowns wish to believe in is bunk and the artifacts he found there were from Indian movements into that area. All you have to do is read Wooden Leg and Black Elk. I have no argument with this, Will, but I am not sure of your point. Absolutely agree! But that has nothing to do with Custer believing Reno was in trouble. And let's make something very clear here so there is no misunderstanding... There is no one on these boards I like or respect more than Will Bender. I consider us very good friends. We have discussed this thing on the phone and Will is the only person I have sent the valley chapter to. He doesn't know it, but he is going to be receiving some more stuff fairly soon. His name will also feature very prominently-- as will Chuck's and DC's-- in the acknowledgment section of Book II. Without the help of all three-- and there are a few others of you, as well-- this book would not be what it will eventually be. Also, again, I have stayed away from "rock drill"... I, II, and III... until I got the impression you all were going back to what you thought happened and until my name was brought into it. I like, respect, and appreciate every one of you bums-- yeah, Rosebud, that includes you (seriously)-- so as far as I am concerned there is no animosity between me and any of you. Please accept my posts in that vein. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by rosebud on Sept 14, 2012 8:25:34 GMT -6
From 3411 there are many shorter routes Custer could have used to get to Reno. Why would he? Best wishes, Fred. I am still with you on this. He wouldn't .........I was just pointing out that he COULD if he wanted to. They are bluffs not cliffs. They are not impassable horseback. I have a good picture that shows the area in question and it is obvious there are MANY possible ways to get to the river. I am not smart enough to get it posted. Rosebud
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 14, 2012 9:09:22 GMT -6
Hello chaps, back to the drill, now I am reaching the bottom of MTC, I believe that Maj. Reno has stirred up the village and is still active, I have re-called Capt. Benteen to re-enforce him, I have also sent for the packs to be brought up also, now my next move;
My leading Company (E) has gone ahead to the Ford (B) that the scouts say is located at the mouth of this coulee (MTC) I have Capt. Yates with Company F to my front, and a three Company battle group under Capt. Keogh behind.
My intentions are to place Capt. Yates on the high ground to cover E Company as it moves to the river; I will join them with my HQ and then send Capt. Keogh to join E Company once the ford is secure.
If the village is empty I will turn left With my full command and support the assault being made by Maj. Reno and Capt. Benteen.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 14, 2012 9:30:38 GMT -6
Ian: And if the village is not empty? More importantly what about the status of the villages downstream? Have you considered reconing the crossing with scouts by stealth, or at least not with a whole company? If you do sieze and secure the crossing, how much combat power can you devote to supporting the Reno/Benteen battle group, and how much must you reserve for the eventuality of the other villages downstream mustering forces against you? Can you afford to fight in two different directions should that become necessary? Do you surrender your most precious asset mobility? When you go over the river that mobility is only as good as the hostiles allow you to have. Once you go over the river there is no going back. It is an all or nothing roll of the dice. Think about the Crusader and Battleaxe battles. The only way I see this working is if you induce enough panic that mitigates response.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 14, 2012 9:43:17 GMT -6
You guys are correct, and I am wrong. I have therefore deleted two post made by me which fan the flames of discontent rather than throw water on the fire of off track expressed opinions.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 14, 2012 9:51:53 GMT -6
hi Chuck, acting on the previous posts above, the Intel I have is that the village maybe empty so I will make my move, if the village is not a healthy place to be and my leading company is stopped by enemy fire I will have to amend my initial attack plan and retire to the higher ground to the east, there I will make my next move, with a command of only 210 men leaves me only a few options, and these options will become fewer if the Indians start massing around the ford, now this may take some time (as Fred said, why would he move north if he was not under attack) and Custer would not have split his command into two and push north with Keogh as a stepping stone for Benteen, but I have ordered Benteen to assist Reno, so I don’t think leaving three of my five companies to take up a position up on the high ground is worth any tactical since, and considering that any move north would take me further away from my two other battalions, my decision would be to either deploy on the high ground and send a runner back to Reno and Benteen to join me, or move back.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 14, 2012 10:27:04 GMT -6
Following you scheme of maneuver, were you to be attacking with a brigade (two regiments) one over Ford A as you have Reno/Benteen, and the other in the north at B or D , especially B , you would have the hostiles where the hair is short. I don't think you have enough combat power up north and barely enough at the upriver side of the villages. The best you could hope for is two inconclusive defensive fights. The hostiles must fight Reno/Benteen. All they have to do with you on the eastern high ground is keep you there and not allow you to move. That is a fairly easy task for them , which just may allow them to mass sufficient combat power against Reno/Benteen to push them out of the way opening the southern route of withdrawl for them. As long as you only give the hostiles to option of moving away from you to the north or west you accomplish at least one of the objectives of the attack. South is another matter. It is to be avoided.
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Post by benteen on Sept 14, 2012 11:22:19 GMT -6
Colonel/Ian,
Gentlemen you both seem to include Capt Benteen in your attack/support plan. How can you do that I make no secret I have no use for Custer as a Commander in the West, but he isnt a complete idiot. If he sent over a 1/3 of his command to valley hunt and "Pitch into anything you find"he must have had a high expectation that there were Indians in that direction or he could have just sent a couple of scouts.
With that being said, as the blue commander I dont know where Benteen is. Is it not posible that he has found these Indians and is 20 miles away pitching into them. Yes you sent a messenger (Martini) but you never got any word back. The last you knew of Benteen is when you sent the SGT Major to tell him if he didnt find anything in the first valley to keep going to the next and so on.
As the blue commander I have already done a dumb thing by commencing and attack without knowledge of over a 1/3 of my force, now I am no tgoing to compound it by figuring Benteen is going to show up soon and make it a Reno/Benteen attack
We know now that Benteen was on the way back when he met Martini, but I as the blue commander didnt know it then. In fact I dont know if Martini even got through. No Gentlemen I cant see how I can include Benteen in my attack.
Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Sept 14, 2012 11:48:36 GMT -6
Dan: I think if you will read further back both Ian and I make the decision to send for Benteen at 3411. At that point I think you will find us both waiting for an appropriate time, observing Reno, and being assured that Benteen is on his way. I would never send Martin as a messenger. That was foolish I think. What the situation called for was an officer or very senior NCO who was fully conversent with intentions, not some man who had trouble with the language. In other words someone of experience.. Based upon what you observe from 3411 the messenger's passage should be relatively safe and away from any hostile action.
Where Ian and I differ is not in anything up to that point, nor do we differ in the opportunity that presents itself by going north should all go fairly well in the valley, with Benteen up or up shortly. Where we do differ is going to MTC in an attempt to either block or cross over the ford. I would not touch that place with a ten foot pole. I don't have to in accomplishing what I set out to do. I don't think Ian does either but that is his decision.
Dan you are not limited by the historical Custer sending the historical Martini. You can send anyone you damned well please, and wait as long as you wish to wait. At 3411 in this exercise, that is the point where you divorce yourself from history, and you become the commander. You may not divorce yourself before. The only thing you can do is repair what history has damaged. After though everything is on your shoulders as far as decision making is concerned. Forget what history tells us about what happened after 3411. In this game you make your own history.
Dan: The entire purpose of this exercise as it was in RD#2 is to recover once you realize you have done a dumb thing by sending Reno forward and you moving up on to the bluff with Benteen away chasing shadows. This is an exercise then of recovery. When you do something dumb in battle, you can't call a time out and return to the line of scrimage. You must make the best decisions based upon what you have, not what you wish you had. There are no do overs. There are only do betters.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 14, 2012 12:29:46 GMT -6
Chuck, the choice of Ford B is not one I would relish, but if I had one unit attacking the village form the south and another from the east (mine) then I would have to at least check it out, you are right over going north, I would not consider as one of my options, being placed in this area with a large village to my left with a river in between, plus coulees, bluffs and trees, the place is a nightmare, but me and my small command of 210 souls must see if we can support Maj. Reno like I promised via Lt. Cook, now if I am stopped at the ford and my way over the ford is blocked, well I would have to pull back and reconsider, I am hoping that Reno (with Benteens help) would be able to look after themselves whilst I make my next move, now the crucial thing is time, if the village started to cough up warriors at an alarming rate in full view of my position (after about 20 minutes or so), then I would try and get back to the Reno/Benteen area as fast as possible.
Hi Dan, about Benteen, yes Chuck is right, we both decided to send for Benteen around the 3411 position, if he (messenger) gets there, or if Benteen is engaged is another thing, but I would have to place some faith in him arriving.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 14, 2012 12:42:01 GMT -6
This is a little off track, but have any of you ever considered what effect the Blue force commander could have on the battle by staging a demonstration at 3411 or thereabouts (just a show of force, something like Rommel did when he first arrived in Lybia with the parade in Tripoli, making your 210 appear to be 2100), and making sure the hostiles saw it. Just a distraction but one sure to have impact. Now think how it would appear in terms of your goals and objective, having the hostiles fighting Reno, Benteen coming in direct support and the illusion of many, many more on the bluffs.
Dan: Ian and I are talking about general support by the possability of going north. You seem stuck on the idea that all support miust be direct support.
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Post by rosebud on Sept 14, 2012 12:46:18 GMT -6
No Gentlemen I cant see how I can include Benteen in my attack. Dan
That is such a great observation. When Benteen got the message he had those same thoughts. He knows he is to late to be of any meaningful help to a running village. But you could send a message for him to hurry and the hell with the packs.
One thing I need to ask all of you....Are you going to be able to keep lines of communication open and if so how? At what point do you think it will be impossible?.....Have we already reached that point?
I do make the assumption that we have control of the high country on the East side of the river, from ford A to at least the hill where Bouyer and the scouts are sitting and watching.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 14, 2012 12:55:38 GMT -6
The critical area is between Reno's rear and Ford A. At the point of departure of the exercise at 3411, I think you are OK as long as every one of the parts retains the ability to maneuver. Lose that and it becomes a toss up 50/50.
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Post by rosebud on Sept 14, 2012 13:22:31 GMT -6
This is a little off track, but have any of you ever considered what effect the Blue force commander could have on the battle by staging a demonstration at 3411 or thereabouts (just a show of force, something like Rommel did when he first arrived in Lybia with the parade in Tripoli, making your 210 appear to be 2100), and making sure the hostiles saw it. Just a distraction but one sure to have impact. Quincannon
I have mentioned this often. I have it later. Calhoun hill area. Have been called all sorts of names for bringing it up. And like you say, there could be MANY reasons to try this sort of thing.
Show of force.....don't come up here. As a threat.....To keep the village running. Yea I know that sounds wrong, but you need to keep the village running so you can hit them when you want. The sooner they run, the more provisions they need to leave behind for you to destroy.
The key is to hit the village as it is just starting to run, not after warriors have delayed the army so the Village can escape without the desired punishment....Use whatever punishment you see fit.
Show of force.....Directional control of where you want them to escape. North is preferred.
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Post by benteen on Sept 14, 2012 13:31:15 GMT -6
I am stopped at the ford and my way over the ford is blocked, well I would have to pull back and reconsider, I am hoping that Reno (with Benteens help) would be able to look after themselves whilst I make my next move, now the crucial thing is time, if the village started to cough up warriors at an alarming rate in full view of my position (after about 20 minutes or so), then I would try and get back to the Reno/Benteen area as fast as possible. Hi Dan, about Benteen, yes Chuck is right, we both decided to send for Benteen around the 3411 position, if he (messenger) gets there, or if Benteen is engaged is another thing, but I would have to place some faith in him arriving. Ian. Hi Ian how are you my friend, This is what I was talking about. From what I understand the rules to be is that you cant change decisions that have already been made, your stuck with them. You are not bound by any decisions after that. At 3411 I agree I would have sent an NCO as a messenger not Martini. Under the rules I can do that because that happened at 3411.What I cant change is the decision to commence an attack by commiting Reno, that decision was made befor 3411 and I cant change it. My point is yes you have sent a messenger but have gotten no word back. You keep including Benteen when you dont know where he is or his situation. Look at your post you say IF the messenger gets there, IF Benteen is engaged its another thing, but you have FAITH that he will arrive. Ian, you have commited 140 men to an attack on a small city with the promise of support, these mens lives are in your hands, you cant count on supporting them with IFs and having Faith something is going to happen. My friend that to me aint going to get it Be Well (Glad your away from the neighbors from hell) Dan
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