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Post by wild on Sept 4, 2012 1:14:52 GMT -6
Even if Weir Point were defensible the command was fragmented thanks to soldier Benteen and the bags and wounded were adrift from the main body and could not have closed up before the arrival of the Indians.
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Post by wild on Sept 4, 2012 1:26:26 GMT -6
AZ I don't recall and am not at home at the moment so do not have books with me, We have been discussing command and control and I have been making the case that the control element with the 7th left a lot to be desired.Are we going to suggest that what little existed was spurious?
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Post by sherppa on Sept 4, 2012 7:05:43 GMT -6
Based upon your posts, in the rear with the gear my ass!!!!!!!! LOL, Perhaps someday, over a campfire and a pot of coffee I can bore you with stories of absolutely zero consequence. take care, sherppa
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Post by sherppa on Sept 4, 2012 7:09:37 GMT -6
Even if Weir Point were defensible the command was fragmented thanks to soldier Benteen and the bags and wounded were adrift from the main body and could not have closed up before the arrival of the Indians. wild, I concur, i do not believe they would have been able to consolidate into an effective defense and the result would have been the same fate as Custer and his command. sherppa
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 4, 2012 7:29:30 GMT -6
AZ I don't recall and am not at home at the moment so do not have books with me, We have been discussing command and control and I have been making the case that the control element with the 7th left a lot to be desired.Are we going to suggest that what little existed was spurious? It would appear that way to me until they regrouped at Reno-Benteen. Someone mentioned the time factor to set up a defense at Weir and that was spot on in my opinion. I have ridden and walked Weir and it seems to have a lot more places that would take troop numbers to defend it properly and totally agree with Montrose. So when the retrograde to Reno-Benteen occurred the wounded and pack train were in no position to have advanced any further toward Wier. The Indians were coming in force. Doesn't seem like there was time to weigh characteristics of each location to determine the best defensive position. The Indians eliminated Weir before Reno ever arrived. AZ Ranger
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 4, 2012 7:50:18 GMT -6
Benteen was previously accused by Wild of being the first to leave for and get to Weir Point. The correct person was Weir, followed by Edgerly and his company, all of whom left without Benteen's permission or immediate knowledge, followed by Benteen's group.
The command in toto was not then under fire, and Benteen acquired needed information of land, enemy numbers, and what was actually going on before making any crucial decision in cahoots with Reno. He was the first officer that day to do so, Custer having issued orders in ignorance and vanished, and Reno being deprived of the opportunity to do so while following his orders from Custer.
The command was not fragmented even if Reno had not brought the wounded and remainders forward. They were in visual contact. Weir risked more than his own life by taking off without orders and possibly against them. Edgerly demonstrated the gung-ho attitude - at least in his retellings - of courageously following Weir, also without orders, which he admits. Despite this, Wild wants to blame Benteen by deciding only Custer could deprive Benteen of battalion responsibilities, contrary to common sense and info provided by American soldiers and combat vet officers here, the completion of that task earlier, and the submission to Reno.
Benteen could have arrested Weir, and possibly should have, fought with Reno over what to do, thrown a fit. He did neither, calmed and unified the men, brought them back coherently with the chain of command intact, served under Reno, and fought them as well as possible for the next 24 hours. There was no failure on Benteen's part enacted during this period.
Wild isn't happy unless he can find qualities so often and easily discerned in the unimportant and trivial actions of Ireland's forces in their remarkably bloody history, slaughtering each other or trying to fight small percentages of England's armed forces. He can't allow any action by others not to contain a monumental incompetence or ethical lapse by situational treason or just self advancement. It's ironic that the songs and stories of Ireland's alleged heroisms are in inverse proportion to the actualities. He can't fluff nothing into something, so he has to accuse others of the same or worse. The drunk at the bar.
That line of superiority went out the window when he damned the US for not nuking the Soviets before they got the bomb, despite being allies and guaranteeing world war 3 and leaving the US with no moral anything, much less authority. But, we'd be down there with Ireland and the other nations who were refused permission to join the UN because of their fascist supports and sympathies, private and official.
Nonetheless, Wild will include himself when discussing something great the Empire's forces achieved and the first person plural sneaks in to his tales. "We." At need, 'we' is bifurcated so that England can be damned to the exclusion of heroic Ireland, a nation that officially mourned Hitler.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 4, 2012 9:05:54 GMT -6
As a general rule, if one wishes to defend terrain ( meaning hold it for an extended period of time denying it to enemy occupation) the more complex the terrain, the more in the way of forces it takes to hold. Weir and its environs was complex terrain.
On the other hand if the objective is to delay or harass in complex terrain the number of forces required are greatly reduced.
Larry brought up the Bulge last night to in part save me from myself. The Bulge was complex terrain. In particular the sector of the 28th Infantry Division. Given a full strength division (the 28th was not-in fact far from it) and about 15 miles more narrow a sector the 28th division could have easily held this area, the complexity of the terrain working for the defender and against the attacker. The 2nd, 4th and 99th Infantry Divisions did just that. Had the 28th not been for trying to defend to much with to little, the Germans would have not made it across the Our River. Of course had it not been for an arrogant cavalry group commander, who lost his nerve and peed his pants the 106th Infantry Division would probably held as well.
Defending Weir, with and evolving mission (M) against a overwheming number of hostiles (E) on Weir (T), with the number present in the Reno/Benteen battle group (T) --- with the time available (T) is a foolhardy bit of nonsence, and I don't give a rat's patoot what first or second lieutenant said it should have been done. Thinking otherwise another acronym applies E-X-L-A-X.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 4, 2012 9:29:31 GMT -6
Sherppa: I have no objections to a conflab around the campfire, as long as the camp is Hilton quality or above and the coffee was brewed in a Five Star kitchen. You don't happen to live in the eastern part of Kansas by chance do you?
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Post by sherppa on Sept 4, 2012 10:53:07 GMT -6
Sherppa: I have no objections to a conflab around the campfire, as long as the camp is Hilton quality or above and the coffee was brewed in a Five Star kitchen. You don't happen to live in the eastern part of Kansas by chance do you? Darn, at my pay grade it would have to be Motel 6 and the house blend from a convenience store. I live about one hundred miles straight south of Ft. A. Lincoln on the Missouri River. be well, sherppa
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Post by quincannon on Sept 4, 2012 11:11:41 GMT -6
That would put you right about Mobridge, South Dakota. I have stayed in and drank worse.
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Post by wild on Sept 4, 2012 12:20:37 GMT -6
I have staid in and drank worse. Colonel a fruedian slip perhaps ;D
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Post by sherppa on Sept 4, 2012 12:20:54 GMT -6
That would put you right about Mobridge, South Dakota. I have staid in and drank worse. Yes, Mobridge, great hunting and lot of local history related to the battle. be well, sherppa
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Post by quincannon on Sept 4, 2012 12:43:14 GMT -6
Richard: There are those that think my complete life is a Freudian slip.
"There is nothing settled, nothing staid in this universe" Virginia Woolf ---I think I stayed with her one night and she was right.
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Post by wild on Sept 4, 2012 12:48:18 GMT -6
What passes as a post by DARK CLOUD is a old refrain long past it's sell by date and but for one brief sentence not worth the bother.
Here is the gem of military wisdom. The command in toto was not then under fire, It is on this that he bases his defence of Frederick William. Again I ask is there intelligent life on DARK CLOUD?
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 4, 2012 18:00:33 GMT -6
When Weir rode north, he was not under fire. When Edgerly rode north, neither was he. Nor Benteen, nor Reno in their turn. The command at issue was not under fire.
Wild, who thinks the US inflicted genocide on the Indians and yet should have nuked our recent Soviet allies when we could have (God knows the Irish would have), may suddenly switch concept to the greater command of the 7th in order to include Custer's situation. But then, the term command would have to also reference Custer's inclusion in all the previous posts, which would be stupid.
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