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Post by sherppa on Aug 27, 2012 9:10:58 GMT -6
What did CPT Weir and D Company actually see? That is a question that has been in the back of my mind for sometime. So finally having the time on my last visit I actually made a conscious effort to try to find out.
Standing at last LSH and looking toward WP with the naked eye (in my case with my bifocals) I along with a friend were able see vehicles coming through the cut on WP but could not distinguish people. With a 6 x (power) monocular (laser rangefinder) still could not make out individual persons.
(Note) I specifically chose the laser rangefinder monocular for two reasons, 1, so I could do some range determinations for another project and 2, because it was 6x magnification. I think that is a decent representation of the optics available at the time. One also needs to keep in mind not only the magnification of the period optics but their condition. I can only imagine how dirty or scratched the lenses would be. Even if purchased just prior to the expedition their condition would undoubtedly have been diminished from dirt/dust and improper cleaning (probably with a gritty bandanna). We did this again from Calhoun Hill looking to WP and had again a hard time disguising people but it was possible if they were not in the shade of the cut. With the monocular individual persons became discernible. This result should be obvious since it is over 1/2 mile closer.
We conducted this same experiment from WP looking back to Calhoun Hill and LSH. With much the same results with the level of discernibly of persons and activities being slightly better, looking from WP to Calhoun and LSH.
Now taking that into account and the level of dust and smoke on the battlefield referred to in the accounts, this is what I came up with.
Weir did not see the end of Custer's immediate command. What Weir saw the final moments of the fighting on Calhoun Hill.
I understand that if truly was the case it presents some real questions about the actual flow (if you will) of the battle.
This will no doubt raise eyebrows and maybe even a few blood pressures but there you have it.
I am posting this to both boards for maximum input.
sherppa
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 27, 2012 9:20:01 GMT -6
Undoubtedly. The dust was said to be gruesome, and the Little Bigman movie was filmed not far away, essentially the same land, and the dust in that is horrendous with far fewer participants and smokeless powder or blanks or whatever. See the YouTube excerpts. Doubt they could see much of anything in any direction with the pony herd dust and camp fires and a western wind.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 27, 2012 9:42:49 GMT -6
Sherppa: I tried the same think from Weir with a pair of BuShips Mark I Mod 2 watch stander field glasses on my visit. I could see Calhoun at about the same degree of clarity you report. It was a clear day with a gentle breeze, so not much in the way of dust and haze. I could see the top of the monument on LSH, but nothing nearer the ground.
My general feeling upon these observations is that you are correct about not seeing the LSH portion of the fight. I believe also based upon these observations and the my view on the general sequence of battle flow, Keogh down before the last of Custer, that what could be seen from Weir by Weir is the last vestages of the Keogh fight, that being dispatching the wounded, and possibly only the portion where the mutilations were taking place.
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Post by fred on Aug 27, 2012 11:20:39 GMT -6
If my timing studies are anywhere near correct-- and of course, I believe they are-- Tom Weir reached the northernmost point by 3:51 PM. By that time, C Company was running for its life in Calhoun Coulee and up the ridge to Finley - Finckle. There had to be immense dust plumes, for at the same time Indians were hot-footing it across the Deep Coulee flats and onto the same ridge. There had to be immense clouds of black gunpowder from Calhoun Hill and Henryville, further obscuring Weir's views.
Benteen didn't reach that same hilltop until 30 minutes later and by that time the emphasis of action had already shifted toward LSH, with a final mopping up in the Keogh Sector.
The best binoculars in the regiment were DeRudio's (and I have lost the magnification specs, dammit!) and Custer had those. Regardless, it would have done no good with all the dust and smoke.
Indian accounts tell us the viewing was so bad they were killing their own people. Soldier Wolf: from this point on, everything was confused. The Indians mounted a “grand charge” and nothing could be seen because of all the dust and smoke.
And we are supposed to believe Benteen and Co. were remiss because they watched Custer die?
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by simong on Aug 31, 2012 23:30:30 GMT -6
Hello,
Sorry to butt in and please forgive me in advance if my questions are poor and misguided.
1. If visibility was so bad on Calhoun Hill because of dust and smoke. How did the survivors of Keogh's wing know where Custer and his wing was and where to head towards them?
2. Wouldn't poor visibility have increased the opportunity of escape for troopers?
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Post by fred on Sept 1, 2012 8:10:27 GMT -6
1. If visibility was so bad on Calhoun Hill because of dust and smoke. How did the survivors of Keogh's wing know where Custer and his wing was and where to head towards them? 2. Wouldn't poor visibility have increased the opportunity of escape for troopers? Simon, You are not butting in and your questions are legitimate, deserving of a decent answer. 1. Because Custer departed earlier from Calhoun Hill in search of a crossing ford in that direction. 2. Yes, and several almost made it. The problem-- as I see it-- is there were so many Indians the attempting escapees would have to first get through that cordon, then when they did, they would be beyond any dust and smoke and therefore in view of other Indians attempting to get into the fighting. The only two we suspect having got any distance from the fighting were 1SG Butler and CPL Foley, neither of whom got beyond Nye-Cartwright Ridge (or Luce Ridge). I have attached a photo of what it looks like from the northernmost of the twin Weir peaks. If you look very closely toward the top of the picture, just below the horizon, you will see a dark area along a ridgeline. That darkness is trees and the ridge is Cemetery Ridge. Not all that easy to figure things out, right? Especially with dust and smoke. Hope that answers your questions. Best wishes, Fred. Attachments:
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Post by sherppa on Sept 2, 2012 7:13:22 GMT -6
Thank you for the additional questions and the input.
Great picture fred! Do you recall what time a day it was taken?
The issue of fratricide is brought up in several Warrior accounts. It makes me wonder some about the accounts of Soldier shooting each other at the battle (Dr. Marquis). Could those comments be the result of the "fog of war" and nothing more?
thanks sherppa
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Post by wild on Sept 2, 2012 7:40:14 GMT -6
The more natural reaction of survivers from an over run unit is to get away rather than get to. In any case LSH must have been swarming with warriors. Running from the frying pan into the fire?
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jag
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Post by jag on Sept 2, 2012 8:01:46 GMT -6
Thank you for the additional questions and the input. Great picture fred! Do you recall what time a day it was taken? The issue of fratricide is brought up in several Warrior accounts. It makes me wonder some about the accounts of Soldier shooting each other at the battle (Dr. Marquis). Could those comments be the result of the "fog of war" and nothing more? thanks sherppa I would have to agree with wild. I do think there was something to the "save the last bullet for yourself" mentality. We tend to forget these people weren't Christians and they did do despicable acts of torture on their enemy's both alive and after they died. The other tendency we do, is read one warriors account and try to apply it to the whole battlefield scene. That wasn't the case in many an instance. And this is one of those instances. We must try to isolate those kind of reports to what that warrior observed. I think he was witnessing something isolated to his view, one where the soldiers seeing that it was becoming hopeless, knew for certain their time alive was seriously in danger and rather than be captured and tortured opted for the "last bullet" option. I believe it was as simple as that.
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Post by biginjunfight on Sept 2, 2012 20:39:16 GMT -6
As a 1st time poster, I must say that you-all seem to be very knowledable.But, my own theory tells me that yeah, probably one or two shot themselves. I think most were fighting so hard and so fast, they probably didn't have time to think of that, or to save a bullet for that matter. Further, I believe Custer sent no message to Benteen.Cooke did it on his own. Custer knew Benteen was sent for all practicle purposes out to the south-southwest and was miles from the battle area.Custer knew that as soon as he saw the actual size of the village.
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Post by wild on Sept 3, 2012 1:50:42 GMT -6
BIFo Cooke did it on his own. God no he did not. You recall Custer throwing a fit when someone moved the regiment forward without his permission? Also he would have had no chance to send unauthorised dispatches without Custer inquiring what he was doing. Such a thing was a shooting offence. Welcome to the board,enjoy.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 3, 2012 7:18:53 GMT -6
Wild Who sent Kanipe according to Kanipe?
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Post by quincannon on Sept 3, 2012 7:57:27 GMT -6
Sherppa: I notice on the other board that you inquired about Benteen remarking that he would not wish to defend Weir Point/Peak. In your post you agreed with Benteen's accessment. I am curious as to why you are in agreement, extracting from that the idea that you too must think it poor for defense. This is not a right or wrong question, but I think one whose answer, is quite important.
The possability exists that Martin and even Kanipe were sent by someone other than Custer. As a matter of fact I think Martin was definately sent by someone other than Custer, and if Kanipe was actually on legitimate business I think he was also. Who sent someone is not the issue. It never has been. The issue is who that someone was working for and more importantly who were they acting for when ordering the one and possibly two messengers. Martin says Custer, but I think that would not be Custer's protocol. I believe he would have turned to Cooke and said send a messenger to Benteen. Same with Kanipe again if he was on legit business. Regimental commanders do not usually have the time to instruct messengers personally,. They leave it to subordinates. Martin said Custer after the battle, after he had achieved eternal glory or damnation depending upon you view. Martin was spoken to directly by the great one. Does that not raise any eyebrows?
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Post by fred on Sept 3, 2012 10:48:02 GMT -6
After the head[less] counts were tabulated, Kanipe claimed it was Tom Custer who sent him back. Convenient.
As for Martini, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell Cooke sent him back without GAC's approval or knowing, but in all likelihood, directing. Martini was Custer's orderly, not Cooke's. According to friend Goldin, Goldin was Cooke's man.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by sherppa on Sept 3, 2012 10:51:14 GMT -6
Yes, I believe he made the right call, for the same reasons as stated by beteeneast.
I will elaborate more on this and the Martin/Kanipe issue later this afternoon.
thank you for the great discussion,
sherppa
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