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Post by benteen on Jul 19, 2012 15:51:22 GMT -6
custer rode with his command to Medicine Tale creek if that is not accepted as understood,there is no point studying the battle. Trumpeter Martin was sent back to Benteen from Ford B ~ That is known from Martini at the Reno Inquiry. Herosrest, I am not saying you are mistaken, you may have a different source than I do. But as far as this" known fact" that Martini was given the message at ford B, this is what Martini stated at the RCOI " At the time Gen Custer passed the high place on the ridge or a little below it he told his Adjutant to send an order back to Capt Benteen. I dont know what it was.Then the Adjutant called me and said Orderly I want you to take this message to Capt Benteen and go as fast as you can" There is nothing what so ever about ford B or any other ford. What is your source for this known fact about ford B Be Well Dan
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Post by herosrest on Jul 19, 2012 17:54:40 GMT -6
Hi Dan
Exhibit 2 from RCOI, item 8, Is part of the material from the inquiry in 1879 that W.A. Graham published. It is what it is, Martini marked on the map where he rode back from. Ford B.
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Post by plainsman on Jul 19, 2012 18:12:12 GMT -6
I believe you are confusing a "B" with an "8." Martin's "8" is at 330 O'Clock and at least 2 miles from Ford B.
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Post by benteen on Jul 19, 2012 18:14:52 GMT -6
Plainsman,
Thank you I was just about to say the same thing. item 8 is no where near ford B. It is very possible that the gentleman did confuse the 8 with something else.
Be Well Dan
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Post by plainsman on Jul 19, 2012 18:22:06 GMT -6
It's not an easy map to read. "B" could be confused with "8." And just try to find "C"!
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 19, 2012 18:28:49 GMT -6
Of course, he cannot read a map anyway. Review where he tried to match photos with map. Comedy gold.
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Post by montrose on Jul 19, 2012 19:13:02 GMT -6
Hero,
I mean no offense, but you state pet theories or assumptions as fact. Then you say anyone who thinks otherwise is the "stuff of fiction", etc.
You may want to consider facts, assumptions, constraints and limitations when developing theory.
You have been getting feedback on how US Army organizations are designed, how they operate, etc. You seem to have one set of standards for Reno and Benteen, and another for Custer.
I can only speak for the former military folks on this board, myself, QC, Fred, AZ, Dan,, and that Reese fellow: we evaluate all officers by the same standards. In the military, you don't get to pick who you serve with. And liking an officer is different than wanting to go to combat with him/her.
In fact, in SF we had 2 generals notoriously hated. One was the finest combat officer I ever served with. If he called me tomorrow and said he was storming Hell, I would follow. The other is just a jerk, a bully, rants and raves at staff, and caused dozens of unnecessary deaths in battle.
Soldiers don't want the most likable guy, they want the most competent guy.
Look at posters on this board. Let's say we are all pulled together by the CIA tonight, and we are going after AL Zawahiri, with an expected 33% casualty rate. Who do you want in charge?
I'd happily serve under Fred or Chuck. I like returning from missions. And I like achieving missions. Those two get it.
Oddly enough, I would trust DC as a mission member. I have to actually meet people in real life to form a better opinion. And I only need a few minutes. Reference book Blink, and years of experience evaluating students.
But there are gut instincts. This is why I respect the opinions of folks who knew the participants, and accounts very close in time to the event. Please note that folks who knew Benteen held him in high regard as an officer, whether they liked him or not.
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Post by benteen on Jul 19, 2012 19:24:19 GMT -6
In fact, in SF we had 2 generals notoriously hated. One was the finest combat officer I ever served with. If he called me tomorrow and said he was storming Hell, I would follow. The other is just a jerk, a bully, rants and raves at staff, and caused dozens of unnecessary deaths in battle. . Colonel, Fine post. Well said. By your above statement it would seem that Sam Damon and Courtney Messangale may not be fictional Officers after all. Be Well Dan PS....I hope your pain has subsided and your feeling better
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Post by elkslayer on Jul 19, 2012 20:47:30 GMT -6
Robert Utley is one who believes that Benteen took his sweet time... I thought he was a respected historian, but that's according to the History Channel. So, is Utley one of those who worship Custer?
Jim
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 19, 2012 21:47:54 GMT -6
1. The History Channel, formerly the Hitler Channel and now the Hirsute Hysteric Yokel Channel, is a joke, at least regarding history. 2. Saying Utley is a respected journalist is like a theater review saying the play was competently directed. All wives are lovely, all children bright, all soldiers brave, all historians respected. It may be true, but that's a boilerplate description. And a lazy one. 2. In any case, where does Utley say Benteen took his sweet time? And when did he say it? He's been at this for decades, and a lot has changed since Gray and his hated timelines. Gray thinks Benteen threatened no sound barrier either, though. I deeply admire Gray, but I think he has a blind spot about Benteen, which I've ascribed to the idiocy of the 60's when Custer was Satan. 3. But Gray never rode the described route, did he? Did Utley ever ride the route as have AZ and Zekesgirl? Has anyone asked him his opinion of AZ's re-enactment of the route? People should ask all the writers and historians. It's aces level historical research, although a few others had done it previously with much the same conclusion. The difference is AZ has reached more people through this site than most people who write profoundly manly books extolling the wannabe's concepts of war and themselves had they been at this battle. And now, it's out there. He's posted the proof, and it really cannot be contested except by someone also riding the route who finds significant error. AZ's route conforms to the several descriptions by the participants. It's godawful. My word, not his. Godawful and much worse than what Reno and Custer went through. Benteen lost nobody to bad mount. Although we're all in agreement about AZ and his contributions, I don't think we appreciate it enough. He's informed about nearly everything necessary to framing the battle. 4. The Morass, no matter where it was, could not host all the horses at once. It's a morass, not a lake or trough. The times between 20-30 minutes may be too long or too short, but that is not criminal negligence given the day, the last potable watering, and what was expected of them. Custer had written previously of how civvies (or infantry, perhaps....) don't get that cavalry can't be going full blast all the time, and horse care essential if you wanted to render effective service when needed. He understood, and while he and Benteen may not have exchanged Christmas cards, he wrote to his wife he had regard for him, which was fully concurred with by most who rode with Benteen. He was a leader on the natch, always. 5. It is not necessary to include me in a combat patrol as even a mission member. I appreciate the kind inclusion, but if I ever showed up, everyone else led by Montrose would drop out, if not change sides. They be forgiven. "Hard Lovin' Loser" by Dick Farina comes very close. Except for all the women part. And I'm fat. And I have to notify EPA when I take off my shoes. Otherwise, dead on. www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPOnw66kSEY
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Post by quincannon on Jul 19, 2012 22:46:57 GMT -6
I would not drop out. You have two essential things I value. You think out the problem, and you are not afraid to speak up if I should propose or start to do something dumb.. That's what keeps you and everybody with you alive, and focused. The rest you can learn. You can't learn that. It must be part of you.
Screw your shoes.
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Post by wild on Jul 19, 2012 23:38:42 GMT -6
Custer's order to Benteen was a 'You come to me" order. This order was written on the bluffs. So there is NO possible way Custer intended Benteen to enter the valley.
For that order to have meant anything but COME TO ME, there would have had to have been a positive order to Benteen from Custer prior to Benteen moving off to the west.
Doth mine eyes behold a sea change? And not a peep from the pro Benteen lobby? Well well well after so much fluff and feathers there it is in all it's glory from the board's ranking officers. Radar, fellow company clerk we can rest in peace.
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Post by wild on Jul 19, 2012 23:57:19 GMT -6
Is there a single piece of evidence that Benteen altered his pace after he received Martin's message? We know he allowed the packs to proceed at their own pace. Did he inform his troop commanders of the necessity for haste? Was the watering supervised? I don't think he altered his pace one way or the other.
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Post by bc on Jul 20, 2012 0:42:47 GMT -6
In fact, in SF we had 2 generals notoriously hated. One was the finest combat officer I ever served with. If he called me tomorrow and said he was storming Hell, I would follow. The other is just a jerk, a bully, rants and raves at staff, and caused dozens of unnecessary deaths in battle. Either one of them Lambert, by chance? bc
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Post by herosrest on Jul 20, 2012 3:57:45 GMT -6
Martinās 8 is at the end of a pencil line which leads directly from Ford B to Reno Hill. Martin left from the ford atea to carry the message to Benteen. His testimony is entirely consiztent with the route indicated.
Martin showed where he rode back from. Ford B.
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