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Post by plainsman on Jul 10, 2012 9:59:11 GMT -6
I'm sure this is not original and may have already been discussed here, but I couldn't find it if it was.
I wonder... Suppose Benteen had done what Custer's message said and was "quick." Suppose he came at the gallop, with no long watering stop at the marsh? Would he have arrived at the bluffs overlooking the west side of the stream in time to see Reno being hard pressed, but before the retreat had begun? And if he had, would he not have changed course and gone down there in support of Reno, who obviously needed help, instead of going on to Custer, who apparently wanted reinforcements rather than "help" of the kind that Reno obviously needed?
If the timing works, and had this transpired it might have been a decisive game-changer. Reno would have perhaps then had the muscle to keep many Indians south of the village and maybe even enough to press forward with his attack (or what would have probably become Benteen's attack considering Reno's probably state of mind at the time) and much pressure would have been removed from Custer who might have been able to complete the pincer.
I know: What if? What if? What if? What if Terry sent a flight of A-10s down the valley on a gun run? Useless ponderings, perhaps, but I do find a Benteen-Reno link-up an interesting supposition and would enjoy reading what others might have to say about it, if anything.
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Post by Gatewood on Jul 10, 2012 10:22:56 GMT -6
I think that you are exactly right and Benteen would have most likely entered the valley on Reno's left, where he was being flanked out toward the benchlands and likely pushed back and even routed the Indians in that area. Benteen indicated that, when he first saw the remnats of Reno's men, he thought it was the entire command and was headed in that direction until re-directed by the scouts. Therefore, it would seem logical that, if he had arrived slightly earlier, he would have proceeded into the valley under the assumption that he was progressing directly toward Custer and re-uniting the entire regiment.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 10, 2012 10:24:35 GMT -6
This is odd. You announced recently you're just joining this board, yet you first appear in 2005. lbha.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Indians&thread=1455&page=1#38671You say you're an experienced plainsman, yet seem to think Benteen didn't move 'quick' if he didn't gallop after his 11 mile jaunt (8 miles on flat map). But as AZ has proven (he rode the route), he came as quick as possible with horses able to act as cavalry, something impossible without restraint and water. Wouldn't you know that? Given the state of the watering hole, how would you have effectively watered faster? Since nobody knew what, if anything, Custer was doing till later, there was no supposition of a pincer, they did not want to bring the train within reach of the Indians (say in the timber with Reno) or spend the night there, either.
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Post by plainsman on Jul 10, 2012 10:33:45 GMT -6
Odd indeed, since in fact I just joined. Odd also that the post you point to, DC, shows my recent joining but is dated back in 2005. I was not here then. I did not write that post, and would not, since it doesn't seem to make much sense to me.
Nor did I ever, anywhere, say I was "an experienced plainsman." So don't start.
I'm weak on timing and distances. I've ordered a supposedly good map and maybe that will answer some of my questions on this score. I was hoping that someone here might help with some solid time/distance info. It's just an exercise in supposition anyway, but I still think it interesting.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 10, 2012 10:49:22 GMT -6
Military operations, like politics is the art of the possible. Proper tactical movements notwithstanding, the force executing those movements must have the wherewithall to accomplish them. Were you a tank commander, a Warthog pilot, or an Apache driver would you deliberately enter combat so low on fuel that it would be impossible to accomplish your mission due to that fact alone? Such was Benteen's situation. He could go forward with his horses in such a condition he would fail or he could act in a prudent and totally appropriate manner and get there (whereever there was) with his command being mission capable. To do otherwise served no earthy purpose.
Now to the what if. Had Benteen reinforced Reno, and the time, distance, and condition of the mounts not a factor, Gatewood is correct. He would have probably temporarily halted the flanking movement, and in so doing just delayed the hostiles ability to flank the joined commands, and he would have left the logistics completely exposed. Both of them should get down on their knees and thank whomever they thank in these situations and be grateful that things turned out the way they did. Reno/Benteen joined number about 250. There were plenty of hostiles there to both take care of the Joy Boys and put paid to Custer on his trip into Hussar Valhala.
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Post by plainsman on Jul 10, 2012 11:13:07 GMT -6
The art of the possible is a good way to put it— perhaps in all things. As I said, I do not know the distance factors yet ('til I get my super-dooper map!), nor the condition of Benteen's mounts. Are there mentions of this in the historical record? But seems like anyway you cut it it always comes back to the line in that old joke: "Where'd all the @$#! Indians come from?"
I have been on cattle drives of about fifteen miles. I would assume the work that cow ponies do is about like what Benteen may have faced. At the end of the drive the horses still had spice in them, at least enough to make the back-trail and return to where they came from, a round trip of 30 miles. None of them were exhausted. Tired maybe, sweaty, but still capable. Weight's an issue of course, men and weapons, ammo, feed. But considering the weights of the 7th riders against larger, modern horsemen it's probably a wash.
I'm really interested in AZ's rides. Was he able to ride the entire battlefield, get times, that sort of thing? Seems like that would be really important info. Info that I do not have, but would like to.
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Post by montrose on Jul 10, 2012 11:20:00 GMT -6
Hmmmmm,
1. Be quick is tied to bringing up the pack train. Benteen deliberately disobeyed orders here. Rather than follow his written orders to bring up the pack train, he continued to move forward. Benteen did not dawdle, he went far too fast.
2. Animals are not mechanical vehicles. Nor are they human. Inspiring speeches will not cause them to go above and beyond physical limitations. No mule has ever "won one for the Gipper".
So let's analyze the effects denying exhausted animals water, and then galloping miles to battle. The command would arrive at the battle at a fraction of its strength. Most of the command would have fallen out.
Those who did arrive would have no mobility. They would have to dismount and fight on foot. Ummm, the literature on horse cavalry commanders needing to ensure they manage their animals to arrive at a battle, capable of further action is not new. The Assyrians had texts on this. So, what's that? 3,000 years?
3. Custer's order to Benteen was specifically to ensure that neither Benteen nor the train entered the valley. For either to follow Reno would be in gross violation of orders.
Custer wanted his trail battalions to at least reach Calhoun Hill. Obviously, we do not know what follow on orders Custer intended for Benteen and McDougall after they arrived at Calhoun Hill.
Custer simply did not exect that Reno would be defeated. His judgement on this issueis an interesting question.
4. Beating the heathen. The reason so called "advanced" cultures beat the savages is organization and decision making superiority. We use organizational design and methods to have superior force at the critical point in time and space to defat all enemies.
Google OODA loop. Ummm, and the wonderful term, COFM> Correlation of Forces and Means. My last paper on COFM was 271 pages, really not interested in going too far down that path.
(COFM a good analytical tool, but in practice by the US Army, means you can kill your way out of civil conflicts. So firebomb Hamburg, or run them through Auschwitz are all positive COFM COAs. Genocide becomes a preferred solution.
( Ok, I am overly bitter here. As a civilian, I got to see what conventional Army staffs were thinking in last 3 years, vice what my old community was doing. Long story here. And not relevant, our focus needs to be 1876).
5. Tactics. The weapon systems used by the 7th Cav had a max effective range of 300 meters. Note: maximium effective range is a function of the weapon itself, and the training of the user. The7th had severe trainig issues.
Ok, is Calhoun Hill within 300 meters of Reno's skirmish line? Is Last Stand Hill within 300 meters of Reno's skirmish line? Is Ford D within 300 metes of Reno's skirmish line?
There is nothing Custer, thought, considered, or did that had anything to do with supporting Reno. It never entered his decision making process.
Custer was hoping the Indians would stay on Reno, so he could conduct offensive operations far to the north.
Custer put hope above rational thought, as was his tendency. Look up Trevilian Station.
I hope I do not come across as too strong. If I cause offense, tell me to bugger off, and then identify the specific issues, for future discussion.
Sigh, just back from VA hospital, in a lot of pain. I will fix grammer and typos later.
Respectfully,
William
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Post by plainsman on Jul 10, 2012 11:31:59 GMT -6
No offense whatsoever, William. I'm sorry about your pain and hope it passes quickly.
Your point #3 interests me. "Custer's order to Benteen was specifically to ensure that neither Benteen nor the train entered the valley. For either to follow Reno would be in gross violation of orders." If you are referring to the order brought by Trumpeter Martin, I do not see that same specificity. And how would Benteen, had he arrived in time, have managed to pass up a desperate Reno in favor of a Custer that Martin indicated was doing just fine?
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Post by wild on Jul 10, 2012 13:57:51 GMT -6
Benteen deliberately disobeyed orders here Maybe.I find him an enigma.Totally indecisive.In a later age he would have been using something ;hey what's all the fuss man?Let's just cool it and chill. Sorry about the pain.Hope it eases.
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Post by plainsman on Jul 10, 2012 14:10:34 GMT -6
I seem to remember reading, somewhere, that someone thought he had in fact "dawdled" in the marshy area watering horses and resting. I know somewhere/someone is hardly satisfactory but I can't put my finger on it at the moment. And someone saying it doesn't make it true, but is it known how long he stayed in that area before moving on toward Custer? I can't imagine it would have been very long since he arrived at the Reno redoubt not too long after Reno did.
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Post by Gatewood on Jul 10, 2012 14:42:05 GMT -6
Plainsman,
One of the things that has been debated ad infinitum is the question as to whether Benteen dawdled or not. Some argue vehemently that he did, while others are just as sure that he did not. Just today or yesterday AZ Ranger has made the point that, from what he has been able to observe, the morass was insufficient to water more than a relatively few horses at a time, and it would have taken some little time just to cycle all of them through. I think that is likely true, but it comes down to the question of was what may have been reasonable in normal circumstances appropriate given Custer's instructions to be quick and Benteen's knowledge that "something" was going on to his front? I don't know, no one else does either, and that is the subject of the debate. I tend to take the view that Benteen was there, was an experienced and competent cavalry officer, and if, in his judgment, the delay (whatever it truly was) was appropriate for watering and resting the horses, then so be it, and I'm not going to presume to second guess him.
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Post by plainsman on Jul 10, 2012 15:11:07 GMT -6
Second-guessing a man who was there is a fools-errand in my opinion. Especially an experienced officer. Just the word "dawdled" instead of "took a while to water his horses" is putting values and judgments into play. And I think accusations have to be weighed in a scale that can also weigh both ground and unground axes.
I also wonder how wise it is to judge ground conditions then with what they are today. I have not been to that marsh, but is it the kind of area that can be realistically assumed to be then as it is now? I understand that even the course of the LBH has changed since 1876, as one would expect.
(I guess now's as good a time as any to confess that I have not been to the battlefield. Mea culpa. Hope to remedy that someday soon.)
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Post by Gatewood on Jul 10, 2012 16:12:11 GMT -6
I think that you are correct in your assertion that we must be careful in marking judgments about ground conditions in 1876 based on today's observations. In regard to the the morass, to begin with no one knows for sure exactly where it was but can only guess based upon what exists today. Secondly, it was spring fed, which means that it's flow probably varied as there was more or less rainfall in the area, etc. So, all-in-all, it is probably impossible to make any judgments with great certainty, but we can only surmise based upon what is observable that it likely was not a great deal different from today, and, even if it was in a slightly different location, the same terrain features that AZ observed in regard to the clay, etc. would probably be very similar.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 10, 2012 16:13:18 GMT -6
PM: Ask Fred.
If you enter the study of this battle with the preconceived notion that Custer in all things acted correctly, and the action or inaction of his subordinates snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, then you must conclude he dawdled. On the other hand if you look at events as they transpired placing everything into context and flow your conclusions about dawdling must be your own. Most doing that though do not reach the conclusion that he did. Rather most, when you weed out the hero worshipers, and the ones who would not know what a combat effective unit is if it hit them in the butt with a bass fiddle, think as I do that he did the best he could do with what he had to work with and the existing conditions.
If memory serves that morass is no longer there, and even its location is subject to speculation and dispute.
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Post by Gatewood on Jul 10, 2012 16:54:21 GMT -6
PM,
I should have mentioned that a large part of the "Benteen dawdled" debate surrounds exactly how long he delayed at the morass and his rate of progress both before and after. There are considerable differences in testimonies and recollections of various people who were there, with the result that, again, no one today knows for sure. I tend to belong to the camp that believes that Benteen didn't take an inordinate amount of time at all and actually made pretty good time. I think my thoughts can be summed up by the testimony of Edgerly when he said that, while he would have liked to have gone faster, they probably went as fast as was reasonably appropriate.
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