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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 5, 2012 8:48:01 GMT -6
Actual time is a study of its own by HR what time do you them crossing the divide and what time did Benteen start his movement away from the main body?
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Post by bc on Aug 5, 2012 9:59:43 GMT -6
Actual time is a study of its own by HR what time do you them crossing the divide and what time did Benteen start his movement away from the main body? Yep, a key factor. I'd like to hear it myself. bc
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Post by herosrest on Aug 5, 2012 10:31:55 GMT -6
Without giving too much away, i'm certain that all frequenting LBHA are of sufficient calibre (45-70) and expe rience to be familiar with the problems Wallace introduced to study by his crazy time information given at RCoI. It was fanciful rubbish that is irrelevant to study of the battle and was part of the 1879 effort to debunk Whiitaker's time and distance assessment. The Wallace time of the place and copy of the itinery which Maguire was not recalled to verify, was and remains Pi in the eye of Whittaker. For realistic data, simply look to the record from 7th Cavalry immediately after the battle and before Whittaker published. Gibson and DeRudio are a good place to start. As a matter of interest, when do you think that Wallace actually produced the original itinery of which he stated he had a copy at RCoI- When did Wallace write up the first itinery?
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Post by herosrest on Aug 5, 2012 12:26:30 GMT -6
The proposition is simply straight forward. one hour before arriving near the village to see Maj. Reoo's withdrawl from the valley, Benteen's command were a maximum distance five miles away and as an equation, hypotenuse must figure in the calculation. Benteen accurately detailed his oblique march towards the Little Big Horn valley in 1876. There is no reason to doubt, amend, or discount his data. During a pderiod of an hour and a half, he marched a maximum distance of seven and one half miles at his stated speed of walk of five mph. Hypotenuse applies to time dist ance comparisons with the advance of the main body.
These simple mathematics expose the story of the battle concocted by W.A. Graham, whose idea was that Benteen obliqued at Crow's Nest during leisurly advances and significant periods at halt. This relied exclusively upon the uncorroborated information from Wallace at RCoI. Which was unrelated to events of 25th June, 1876.
An hour and a half before arriving to see Reno' retreat from the valley,Benteen was no further than seven and a half miles from Ford A. He arrived near Ford A at about 2pm on the 25th June - as told to Lt. Maguire and used by Wallace later, at RCoI to present that Custer and Reno arrived at 2pm. There is the mistake perpetuated into modern history of the battle - it is a lulu, one real howler AND who, that has published seriously in that vein, will admit such a stupid enduring error. Smile?................ ;D
It will be a large person who eats that crow, but doing so will earn serious respect!
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 5, 2012 13:45:55 GMT -6
You never answered the question about when they crossed the divide and when Benteen was sent on his mission.
Here what Benteen answers:
Q. State, if you know, at what hour in the day it was when you reached Reno on the hill?
A. I only know from Lieut. Wallace that it was 10 minutes after 12 when I started off with my battalion from General Custer.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 17, 2012 20:43:34 GMT -6
Interestingly ;D Benteen only knew from Lt. Wallace at what time he started off from Gen. Custer. That is huge problem, since Lt. Maguire did not corroborate Lt. Wallace.
Lt. DeRudio offered the interesting observation of Custer and Cooke watching from the bluffs as the companies in the valley retired into the timber. That is a diificult sighting to accept because of the distance involved, and yet during inquiry DeRudio remained confident. He also accurately located the terrain upon which Custer and Cooke were sighted by his testimony besides locating the place to Lt. Maguire's map.
Gray's study of the battle revolves around that sighting, his time line also and launched a large goose. Assumption being that the commands of Keogh and Yates then advanced into battle from near that point. Walter M Camp held similar opinion. Regardless that, though, DeRudio further observed Benteen's command nearing Ford A before moving to Reno's men east of the river.
So, assuming that Lt. DeRudio was correct that Custer watched Maj. Reno's men retire towards the timber and their mounts, did Custer also see Benteen's command moving towards the battle and Ford A.
Trumpeter Martin's ride onto the bluffs and towards A meeting with Benteen has him aware of the valley fight but not the retreat across the river.
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Post by fred on Dec 17, 2012 21:41:10 GMT -6
Herosrest, Where have you been? I've missed you. ... Lt. Maguire did not corroborate Lt. Wallace. He couldn't; he wasn't there. Only Wallace was. Good job here... I agree. And both of them believed Custer & Cie. were on Weir Peaks... totally incorrect. Not even close. By the time DeRudio spotted Benteen Custer was approaching Ford B. And DeRudio never said Custer watched as Reno's men pulled back to the timber. Never! And DeRudio cheated a bit... a classic case of chilled feet. There wasn't a soul who corroborated DeRudio's fable about yanking men off the A Company line to chase Indians in the timber. He left the line early and hunkered down in the bushes, a la, Goldin. Read his testimony, then figure how he could have done all he said he did in the brief minutes he claimed Reno fought in the valley before pulling out. My heavens, HR...! Twice in one post! Five comments, two correct. That's .400.... If this were baseball you would be headed to the Hall. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 17, 2012 23:42:57 GMT -6
Hi Fred,
I did mention the distances and circumstancees mitigated against DeRudio's observation. I don't believe you are his fan.
What is known, is where Trumpeter Martin indicated to the inquiry, that he rode bach from. The pencil line marked on the lnquiry's Exhibit 2, runs back from Ford B towards Sharpshooter's where '8' was marked.
For DeRudio to have seen Custer upon the bluffs, the Lt. Col would have to heve ridden after Tr. Martin. Custer's command were seen advancing when Lt. Varnum and Reno's companies were dismounting and as far as the record indicates, there was no halt until MTC. Little Sioux's account indicates Custer's men were fighting before the stolen ponies were run up the bluffs onto Weir's Peak. The Arikara Narrative is, as you know, a work of art but l trust my analysis of LS's data and crossing point on the ridge.
I hope you are well, it's good to know you are there to trip me up. The DeRudio sighting is a good what if. Kanipe saw the pack trains dust rolling up during his ride.
A ps ~ We do know from DeRudio that weapons were jamming at 8~10 rounds shot off, and that is important. He had no reason to fabricate, and a jammed carbine might just put the willies up a few guys.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 18, 2012 19:55:11 GMT -6
Herosrest, Where have you been? I've missed you. ... Lt. Maguire did not corroborate Lt. Wallace. He couldn't; he wasn't there. Only Wallace was. ...... Best wishes, Fred. Picking up another of the 60% you tripped me on Fred, you knew/know the matter offered was Wallace's itinery discussed by the Court of Inquiry during Wallace's recall to support and verify his previous recollections to the inquiry. Maguire was not recalled. Wallace's inferred that Maguire supported and had verified his (Wallaces) itinery. The one offered during his testimony. Maguire was not recalled to verify Wallace's recollections of times of reliance on the itinery dicussed with the Court during Wallace's further questioning. An accusation leveled at Lyman, Reno and other officers giving testimony at Reno's Inquiry was that meetings took place between them before giving testimony. That was an unfortunate accusation made, and rebutted later, for example by Edgerley. What did take place was considerable confusions in relating the times of day that various events occured and the confusion was brought about by Wallace and infirmation he gave to the inquiry, which disagreed with most everyone else except those who deferred to times given by Wallace. He turned the Inquiry on its head as Lyman and Reno found their case being undermined by Wallace. The Reno Inquiry was about discrediting Whittaker's assessment of the battle because of the implications that Whittaker levelled at Reno and Benteen. That, on the 25th June 1876, the ogfficers of the 7th Cavalry did not know the time of day is playing fast and loose with the history. It was a pity, from my own point of view, that Whittaker was not allowed his request to join the 'inquisition' and question Reno and others. That would have been the hilarious tin lid to the whole thing. Hmmm, waffled on a bit, l did. Here, archive.org/stream/nosurvivorsnovel00henr/nosurvivorsnovel00henr_djvu.txt in text, from Chapter 10, is an interesting account of the battle. Background etc here archive.org/details/nosurvivorsnovel00henr and just a good settle back with a JD, dry cider and ice, and enjoy a good yarn. Here openlibrary.org/books/OL24606666M/Sitting_Bull_-_Custer is a little known work by one of the battles' stalwart bringers of utterly obfuscated obfuscation, no less than 'Sitting Bull - Custer' by A. McG. Beede, published 1913 by Bismarck Tribune Co. Despite his contribution of battle lore with O.G. Libby, to the Montana Historical Society; he is forgiven all for the map of the battle on this books back page. Be well.
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Post by fred on Dec 18, 2012 21:49:58 GMT -6
HR,
And your point is...?
By the way, Merry Christmas.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 19, 2012 16:22:37 GMT -6
Seasons greetings returned. My point ultimately, relevant to topic ~ Benteen and Reno did link up. I am certain that l have that correct, if nothing else. Don't leave yer chestnuts roasting too long. Regards
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 20, 2012 6:45:45 GMT -6
HR I quit reading the first after reading this While the character of Colonel Clayton and his journal, which constitutes the book, are purely fictional, all references to histori- cal characters, both white and Indian, battles, Indian campaigns, and other recorded incidents of the Indian warfare are true to the history of the period. I quit the second because it was a drama laid out like a play. It was not authored by SB and was the authors impression of what might have gone on. It simple goes to authors impression of the Indian way of life and not actual facts. Whose beating heart did they pass around at the fire? Where is the medicine booth? And what is a medicine booth? Do you still believe that Benteen crossed the LBH and was on Reno's left in the LBH valley? You have posted before that Benteen went further than south fork of Reno Creek. Myself I believe Benteen went no further than No Name and that the point where Gibson made his last observation is on a highpoint of a ridge separating Noname from SFRC. I believe he studied maps and pointed out the location to Camp. At that location it is last and highest observation point with the elevation of 3960 ft. From that point he believed he had clearly viewed the last valley where Indians could be located in numbers before reaching the LBH. End of mission If the link up of Reno and Benteen you refer to is on or near Reno Hill than you have it right. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Dec 20, 2012 17:08:09 GMT -6
AZ There is a bit and some of Benteen's valley hunt that is unsatisfactory, partly because these were seriously experienced and able fighting men. There is mystery with the message carried to Custer by the senior Arikara and quite a bit else. When officer's afre contradicting their commanders a few wires have been crossed. Benteen told Terry exactly where he was and Terry reported it on the 27th. On Reno Hill, the two battalions united, nothing they could do would have mattered other than wiping themselves out. They were not fools. Weir was certainly up for it but a cool head WAS required. Merry nrw year. This being the season of the sanity clause, l wish you well and hope that you one day visit F. Whittakers' grave.
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jag
Full Member
Caption: IRAQI PHOTO'S -- (arrow to gun port) LOOK HERE -- SMILE -- WAIT FOR -- FLASH
Posts: 245
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Post by jag on Dec 20, 2012 20:24:42 GMT -6
AZ There is a bit and some of Benteen's valley hunt that is unsatisfactory, partly because these were seriously experienced and able fighting men. There is mystery with the message carried to Custer by the senior Arikara and quite a bit else.
When officer's afre contradicting their commanders a few wires have been crossed. Benteen told Terry exactly where he was and Terry reported it on the 27th.On Reno Hill, the two battalions united, nothing they could do would have mattered other than wiping themselves out. They were not fools. Weir was certainly up for it but a cool head WAS required. Merry nrw year. This being the season of the sanity clause, l wish you well and hope that you one day visit F. Whittakers' grave. There is a bit and some of Benteen's valley hunt that is unsatisfactory, partly because these were seriously experienced and able fighting men. There is mystery with the message carried to Custer by the senior Arikara and quite a bit else.
When officer's afre contradicting their commanders a few wires have been crossed. Benteen told Terry exactly where he was and Terry reported it on the 27th.[/u] You writing a book too? If not please share with us what Benteen told Terry as it pertained to "exactly where he was". That is if you're exposing "There is a bit and some of Benteen's valley hunt that is unsatisfactory...
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Post by herosrest on Dec 23, 2012 19:04:58 GMT -6
According to Terry, as stated in his report, Benteen's command were where he was told they were, at the time Terry was told they were where they were. From where Terry was told they were, they moved onto Reno Hill. Benteen's march took an hout and a half at five or so miles an hour. Thus the simple equation of time and distance is resolved when it is known from which point along the route of march, Benteen's command were sent towards the Little Big Horn valley.
Reno made his charge at 2pm and Benteen arrived to join Reno's battalion at about 2.30 pm.
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