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Post by herosrest on Jun 15, 2012 10:22:03 GMT -6
Can the Double D wobble effect (Wiki it) assist time and distance estimation?
A message was carried by Aricaree scout Stabbed to Custer's command at the end of the ridge. This was established in research by Orin G. Libby and Walter M. Camp. This is excluded from all serious study of the battle. It is accepted that Boston Custer rode to join Custer's command. It is not considered that Stabbed did also, and survived the battle. This is simple example of bias, a fact of life. Biases towards Benteen, Reno and Custer are considerable and historical fact.
Why is Stabbed's ride to Custer with a message, ignored?
What was the message Stabbed carried to Custer? Where did Stabbed carry that message to?
How can it be determined where Stabbed carried the message from?
From the officer's call on 25th June, 1876, what distance was covered by Custers command to arrive at the mouth of Medicine Tail Creek?
How long did that march take?
What was the average speed of that march - the rate of travel in miles per hour? Assume the shortest route was taken to the mouth of Medicine Tail Creek.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Jun 15, 2012 14:30:46 GMT -6
1) Can the Double D wobble effect (Wiki it) assist time and distance estimation? 2) A message was carried by Aricaree scout Stabbed to Custer's command at the end of the ridge. This was established in research by Orin G. Libby and Walter M. Camp. This is excluded from all serious study of the battle. It is accepted that Boston Custer rode to join Custer's command. It is not considered that Stabbed did also, and survived the battle. This is simple example of bias, a fact of life. Biases towards Benteen, Reno and Custer are considerable and historical fact. Why is Stabbed's ride to Custer with a message, ignored? What was the message Stabbed carried to Custer? Where did Stabbed carry that message to? How can it be determined where Stabbed carried the message from? 3) From the officer's call on 25th June, 1876, what distance was covered by Custers command to arrive at the mouth of Medicine Tail Creek? How long did that march take? What was the average speed of that march - the rate of travel in miles per hour? Assume the shortest route was taken to the mouth of Medicine Tail Creek. 1) Depends on the size of the lady's bust. 2) This is yet another of those pointless LBH scenarios that exercise minds interested only in unimportant minutiae. In fact, it is likely that this is a combination of two events distorted by incorrect interpretation. What you cite is only partically possible. In his narrative in the Arikara Narrative, Soldier said: "A messenger met the general, and Custer took off his buckskin coat and tied it on behind his saddle. Custer rode up and down the line talking to the soldiers. The soldiers cheered and some tied handkerchiefs around their heads and threw hats away. They gave a big cheer and went ahead, but my lazy old horse straggled behind. I saw where we had crossed the river, and I was a long way behind the soldiers. There were other stragglers between me and Custer. The ones nearest to me were White Eagle and Bull. Stabbed was behind, came up behind me and explained that he had been out with a message to soldiers over to east." Now the messenger almost certainly came from either Varnum or Hare who were on high ground viewing the Indian village and Stab's reference to taking a message to soldiers over to the east is generally taken to mean Benteen's command. As Benteen made no mention of receiving a message from an Indian scout and there was no reason not to, plus the fact that Custer sent his Chief Trumpeter and Sergeant Major with other messages, so there is no logic to sending an Indian scout with another, when Custer obviously wanted clear verbal messages to be delivered to the Captain. I therefore believe that Stab had been sent to Custer by either Varnum or Hare and that either Soldier simply misunderstood him or Camp misinderstood Soldier. Additionally, there is ample evidence in the Arikara Narrative that Stabbed was not with Custer's command after Reno was sent across the LBH. 3) If you want the answers to your questions I suggest that you do you own research. If however, you are intimating that you know something that we don't, or you are on yet another tiresome trip down timeline alley, either make your point, in which case I will respond to it, or forget it if it covers the same old ground. Sincerely, Hunk
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Post by herosrest on Jun 23, 2012 8:29:04 GMT -6
Hi Hunkpapa. There are difficulties with record left by the tribes, all sorts of little things and some bigger issues related simply to belief in what was told, its significance and the degree to which it was pushed to one side by those who didn't care for the information. I am not a conspiracy theorist, certainly in terms of a military or government plot - but those who found themselves in the spotlight of recriminations, naturally put the best and bravest face on events in their own interest. That is the way of life. A for example type thing was DeRudio seeing Custer & Cooke on the bluffs. Years later Peter Thompson was dismissed in sighting Custer on the flat, with Curley and a hostage. No-one will ever really know. Thanks for the pointers to stuff. I have tried to emulate O.G. Libby's style in my latest.......... and it is a difficult text. Have fun. regards.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 18, 2012 17:47:08 GMT -6
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Post by plainsman on Jul 18, 2012 18:06:57 GMT -6
This struck me as I read Hunk's post...
"...when Custer obviously wanted clear verbal messages to be delivered to the Captain."
So he sends Giovanni Martini.
(Wasn't Voss the Chief Trumpeter?)
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Post by herosrest on Jul 18, 2012 20:02:59 GMT -6
Martini was Benteen,s trumpeter, is the way I see it, simply the military eay of things. A message to Keogh would have been carriiled by McGucker or Patton though not ovdr the same distances. There was more took place with the messages and messengers than is generally accepted because of the huge desires to vindicate Reno and Benteen for events of the 25th. Both were happy to shovel dirt ovsr dead colleagues once their careers wefe threatened an neithdr man can be taken seriously for comment afyet publication of Whittaker‘s attack on them both and the threzt of a Congressional inveztigation into their actions and alledgex cowardice during the battle.
That was the allegation levelled against then by Whittaker and taken seriously by members of the congress in 1878.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 19, 2012 3:26:28 GMT -6
I know my spelling is carp, but this is bad, why go to all this trouble and miss spell around five or six easy words, talk about typo errors.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 19, 2012 6:46:39 GMT -6
When was Benteen's career threatened?
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Post by herosrest on Jul 19, 2012 14:00:11 GMT -6
The June 1878 letter to Sen. Corliss accused both Reno and Benteen of cowardice and was taken seriously. it led to the Reno Inquiry of 1879, W.A. Graham covers the matter in the 1933 transcripts during discussion of what took place. Let's wobble..... 1.2.3.11/bmi/www.fancysplace.com/smileys/exp.gif
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Post by herosrest on Aug 7, 2012 16:00:03 GMT -6
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 8, 2012 7:01:24 GMT -6
HR the links don’t work…. As they say in Yorkshire ‘’it’s a reet loward ov sheet’’ translated in English it means ‘’a right load of crap’’.
Ian.
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Post by herosrest on Aug 9, 2012 19:27:42 GMT -6
Hi Ian, l see a wobbling exclamation......... one of fancy's finer pieces.
I spent a long, long time in knots with the warrior accounts and particularly the mid 20th century stuff about the early contact with Custer's immediate command. What should be straight forward because of the wealth of admittedly conflicting information, isn't, even today a century and more later after an awful lot of research. It should be as easy as falling off a log to discern the tactics and maneuver, and that hasn't happened in modern time because no-one understands how the cavalry fought.
Charles King's take on it, his sketch, has that, the line, routes of march and he understood the tactics. What he didn't have was Cheyennes who fought, telling what they knew.
Frederick Whittaker produced a similar assessment in 1876 but everything he published has become a no go zone because of the return it entails to his assessments of Reno and Benteen. Benteen feit that no real line was formed, other than at Calhoun Hill perhaps, but it was much simpler than that. The retreat was by the book, Custer's book, fighting on foot with the horses held to rear or encircled by the troopers, walking out in irregular skirmish line - just as King's sketch indicates.
What l was looking for, long time, wasto understand how the fighting imparted to Grinnell by Cheyennes relating the Rosebud fight, could apply to Lima Bravo and there it iswith King. At some point, the mount up was called and the warriors were all over them. Yellow Nose described it, as each trooper took up his own mount from the horse holders and all hell let loose.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 10, 2013 10:52:53 GMT -6
Regards Hunkpapa,
I hope you are well and on the mend.
Some thoughts regarding your reply #1The Battle at Little Bighorn, 25th-27th June 1876 was reported to the 44th Congress by the Secretary of War and included official reports by Maj. M.A. Reno (July 5th) and Capt. F.W. Benteen (July 4th) attached to the annual report of General Alfred H. Terry, Commander of the Department of Dakota for the year 1876 as contained in the Annual Report of the Secretary of War for 1876. related ~ books.google.co.uk/books?id=UPFUNdpcEwQC&pg=PA93&lpg=PA93&ots=7eQjHLNgvZ&dq=little+big+horn+terry+annual+report+1876&output=html_textThese documents form the OFFICIAL record of events at Little Big Horn. www.littlebighorn.info/Articles/benteen1.htmwww.digitalhistory.uh.edu/disp_textbook.cfm?smtID=3&psid=4021The inquiry which took place in 1879 was the consequence of a personal dispute between Maj. Reno and F.W. Whittaker, convened by approval of Maj. Reno's request that his grievances and accusations against him be settled before an inquiry, rather than duel. The inquiry was a personal matter of irreconcilable disputes between two parties. Frank Leslie's Illustrated Newspaper for July 22, 1876 gave report on the Custer Massacre in 16 pages plus a four page supplement. 'General Custer had attempted to ford a stream and attack an Indian Village. Custer's force had been cut off from rejoining Major Reno on the bluff. The scene of the massacre showed defensive positions, successively taken up and held until none were left to fight.' 136 years later, that information from officer's present on the field remains disputed and discredited by some who wish to alter fact. Partisan efforts on the behalf Terry, Reno, Benteen and Custer sway opinion and attitudes to a military defeat and promote enduring popular interests, study and debate of the battle and its broader history as the events hindsights and nostalgia mature. It is impossible to develop a rational assessment of 7th Cavalry's advance and battles on 25th June 1876, that is not rooted in and guided by the evidence of reports made by Terry, Reno and Benteen immediately after the battle and Terry's annual report. All since who ignore and disparage that information write and propound piffle, of the pure and utter breed. They serve up bubble bath for boars. Time study ignoring those reports is as flawed as the thinking behind it and foolishly dishonest. A problem infests study of the battle in that an obviously brief struggle by Custer's command cannot be accepted. The implication is that a row which began immediately afyer the battle has blossomed to insanity that is actually acceptable to people who devote themselves to academic study and or historical writing. l do hope thou art bored by now....... OK, the wobble..... Because the Custer fight concluded before Benteen could march to Custer, a defence of that circumstance is ridiculous. That Reno should have retreated from defending the timber, is ridiculous. That Custer should not have divided his command, is ridiculous. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A scout rode to Custer in MTC and returned to join a party herding stolen Sioux ponies on bluffs overlooking Maj. Reno's action in Little Bighorn valley. This is ignored. 'This is yet another of those pointless LBH scenarios that exercise minds interested only in unimportant minutiae. In fact, it is likely that this is a combination of two events distorted by incorrect interpretation.'This matter goes to the heart of time and motion analysis and faults all study that does not address and implement it. What you cite is only partially possible. In his narrative in the Arikara Narrative, Soldier said:
A messenger met the general, and Custer took off his buckskin coat and tied it on behind his saddle. Custer rode up and down the line talking to the soldiers. The soldiers cheered and some tied handkerchiefs around their heads and threw hats away. They gave a big cheer and went ahead, but my lazy old horse straggled behind. I saw where we had crossed the river, and I was a long way behind the soldiers. There were other stragglers between me and Custer. The ones nearest to me were White Eagle and Bull. Stabbed was behind, came up behind me and explained that he had been out with a message to soldiers over to east."
The messenger to Custer was not from Reno, who had not reached Ford A. The messenger was not from Varnum or Hare, both were moving to rejoin the command as it closed with the village. Varnum meeting Custer as Reno marched pasr him and turned west at the lone tepee three quarters of a mile from Ford A. The messenger met Custer in the vicinity of the Lone tepee near the White Buttes at the south fork of Reno Creek. That messenger came from Varnum, McDougall, Reno or Benteen.
Now the messenger almost certainly came from either Varnum or Hare who were on high ground viewing the Indian village and Stab's reference to taking a message to soldiers over to the east is generally taken to mean Benteen's command. As Benteen made no mention of receiving a message from an Indian scout and there was no reason not to, plus the fact that Custer sent his Chief Trumpeter and Sergeant Major with other messages, so there is no logic to sending an Indian scout with another, when Custer obviously wanted clear verbal messages to be delivered to the Captain.
There is an element of confusion with this response, in that the messenger when Custer took off his buckskin coat and tied it on behind his saddle, is not the messenger who rode along the bluffs to meet the command in MTC. That was the Arikara (Ree) named Stab or Stabbed. He rode a race winning horse, as told in the Arikara Narrative. It is implicit to Soldier's accounts that Stab rode along the bluffs east of the river to take a message to Custer. Stab further indicates what that message was and what they, he and Stab would do, if and when Stab returned to Soldier for his bag of Winchester bullets.
I therefore believe that Stab had been sent to Custer by either Varnum or Hare and that either Soldier simply misunderstood him or Camp misinderstood Soldier.
The Arikara Narrative and Camp's account mitigate completely against your assessment. Stab met and passed Soldier on the bluffs and not before.
Additionally, there is ample evidence in the Arikara Narrative that Stabbed was not with Custer's command after Reno was sent across the LBH.
Stab rode to Custer's command and met them at the end of the ridge, then returned to meet Soldier with the pony stealers on the bluffs.
3) If you want the answers to your questions I suggest that you do you own research. If however, you are intimating that you know something that we don't, or you are on yet another tiresome trip down timeline alley, either make your point, in which case I will respond to it, or forget it if it covers the same old ground.
Timeline alley is a blind alley because the information concerning a message sent to Custer is ignored. There was nothing to say Stab initially carried a message to soldiers to the east before being sent to Custer with one.
Amongst Walter Campbell's notes is reference to warriors who fought Crook using the South Fork of Reno Creek and that should have been a heavy trail, and one that Benteen's march would encounter. There is of course no mention of such.
We do know that Stab intended to return to Soldier on the Bluffs and hunker down to make a stand. Therefore a large warrior presence was known to him. One can assume that Custer found that information to be of interest and relevant to what he was seeing in Little Bighorn valley when Stab caught up with him.
Perhaps Stab carried a warning to Custer, and possibly some good advice, we will never know, but what we do know is the the detail of reports furnished after the battle by Terry, Reno and Benteen and the fact that timelines built using that factual data, shows work by the likes of Graham and Gray to be complete nonsense worthy of disdain.
The reason that such timeline rubbish must be held up, seen for what it is, and washed with carbolic, is for the lie it is used to impregnate events with. The Custer fight ended quickly and that is being hidden in a smoke of time motion rubbish.
Odds and ends ~
books.google.co.uk/books?id=X_9bfaXEqUAC&pg=PA221&lpg=PA195&ots=1_lZ-W653b&dq=galaxy+magazine+custer+whittaker&output=html_text
www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/custer-massacre-in-leslies-newspaper-1st-report
www.natureshift.org/Whawk/resource/scouts.html
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Post by herosrest on Jan 12, 2013 20:23:58 GMT -6
As Reno approached the river, according to interpretations that have very wide eyes and active swishy tales, battalions led by Keogh and Yates were doing something very odd and developing an increasing lag as they progressed as approximately as actual, some 4~5 miles downriver and 2~3 miles beyond where Reno deployed his battalion. The distance travelled by Reno included a mile marching west after diverging towards Ford A and resuming north westerly.
15 minutes before the pack train arrived at Reno Hill, gunfire was heard by McDougall, and officers on the hill where Benteen's command had arrived. The pack train was therefore at that time about one mile distant from Reno Hill. The firing originated from Finley Hill which was then over run ~ the firing ceased.
When Benteen arrived to Reno Hill, Custer was 3~4 miles distant. Weir rode one mile towards Custer and saw no organised fighting taking place. The ravine in which Keogh's command died is in defilade to view from Wear's Peak. Custer's command were then, at that time, overcome.
As the pack train advanced the mile to Reno Hill after hearing Custer's gunfire from Finley Hill, Weir was advancing to wards Custer. Using distance covered by each command, regardless of the rate of travel, the Custer fight was over when Weir viewed the battleground.
Since all elements of the regiment commenced their marches from the same location, the officer's call, and distances covered to Reno Hill by the pack train are precisely known, the problem of time is impossible to disagree. It is the time taken by the pack train to arrive ar Reno Hill, and at which time Custer's fight was concluded. It took 15~20 minutes after volley fire from Finley Hill.
Each command watered horses.Depending upon accounts, record of bodies on the ground and likely force strength, from 2 to 10 volleys were fired by 20 or 40 troopers, which is 40 to 400 spent carbine rounds. In the Calhoun area a maximum of 1600 spent rounds may have littered the ground, although officer testimony indictes weapons were likely to jam after 8 ~ 10 rounds of rapid firing,800 rounds at Nye Cartwright ridge indicates either 20 men expending all carried rounds, or 40 men shooting off 20. There should be evidence of a skirmish line on Greasy Grass Knoll.
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Post by fred on Jan 12, 2013 22:15:03 GMT -6
That is a picture of Don Horn.
Best wishes, Fred.
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