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Post by scottbono on Jan 10, 2014 14:35:48 GMT -6
Have you heard the Jimi Hendrix version of the “Star Spangled Banner’’? He played it a Woodstock in 1969, and for an Ex-Paratrooper he played it beautifully. Ian. Ian...Woodstock? You date us, my friend! But I agree, he did a good job. My alltime favorite vocal rendition was Whitney Houston's - granted she lip-synched it. Right up there (vocals) is 'Battle Hymn of the Republic' done by the West Point glee club. 'Mansions of the Lord' is a tear-jerker for me, too.
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Post by scottbono on Jan 10, 2014 14:38:49 GMT -6
Scott: Please don't overlook the fact that Baltimore was the birthplace of the Liberty Ship, the first being SS Patrick Henry built at the Bethlehem Steel Fairfield Yard. The ship (at least the type) that won World War II. How could I forget!? My first real job out of high school was in 'tool repair' at the Fairfield yard! It was well said, back in the day, America was truly the arsenal of democracy. Liberty ships...kept everyone in the war (for our side).
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Post by quincannon on Jan 10, 2014 14:43:05 GMT -6
Well it is painfully obvious to me that neither of you have heard the blind drunk at the I Bar version of Down From Heaven Comes Eleven.
I agree with you on that version of Battle Hymn.
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Post by scottbono on Jan 10, 2014 14:47:55 GMT -6
Scott, a Hopkins LAX logo, no wonder you have problems with English, heck the fact that you are on a site concerned with history is amazing in and of itself. Just kidding! I have monitored this site many times, and garnered much worthwhile info. This discussion prompted my first reply, as it alludes to Peter Thompson and his tale, a story I have yet to figure out. Thank you all for the education and food for thought. The fact I am from BALTIMORE explains any problem I have with the English language. As to history? Hmmm...considering B'more is the home of Fort McHenry, the Battle of North Point and The Star Spangled Banner I have some basics; at least a bit more than most who sing the anthem at sports events, funerals and the like . Small point and almost trivial but for its historic impact (literally); British troops advanced up the coast in Maryland, led by General Robert Ross and Vice-Admiral Alexander Cockburn. Ross was a veteran of Waterloo and commanded a brigade of troops veterans of the same battle. The Americans established a defensive line along North Point under Brigadier John Strickland. During the battle, an unnamed sniper shot Ross in the chest. The resultant demoralization (among other things) of the British troops resulted in them embarking on ships out in the Patapsco River awaiting neutralization of Fort McHenry guarding the Baltimore harbor. Of course the result of that is well known however, but for, perhaps, a well-aimed sniper ball, the whole outcome would have been far different. Not only that, but we wouldn't have Captain Harvey's...
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Post by scottbono on Jan 10, 2014 14:51:27 GMT -6
Well it is painfully obvious to me that neither of you have heard the blind drunk at the I Bar version of Down From Heaven Comes Eleven. I agree with you on that version of Battle Hymn. What a segue; from the blind drunk at the I Bar to "To Anacreon in Heaven" - the drinking tune to which 'The Battle of Fort McHenry' was set - producing our national anthem. History has its sense of humor.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 10, 2014 15:01:23 GMT -6
North Point was a pivotal battle, and it is said that the sniper who whacked Ross was a member of what is known today as the 175th Infantry (Fifth Maryland). Back in the day the 2nd Battalion was headquartered at North Point, very near the battlefield. The Brits would still have to make it past the fortification at the recently mentioned Patterson Park though, and that ground is formidable. I do think had those RN ships been able to get closer to McHenry they just might have reduced it to rubble. As it was they were fairly fat out near where the Key Bridge is now. Could not get any closer I suspect due to the pinching of the land mass near where the Fairfield Yard is narrowing the entrance to the Inner Harbor.
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Post by scottbono on Jan 10, 2014 15:17:10 GMT -6
North Point was a pivotal battle, and it is said that the sniper who whacked Ross was a member of what is known today as the 175th Infantry (Fifth Maryland). Back in the day the 2nd Battalion was headquartered at North Point, very near the battlefield. The Brits would still have to make it past the fortification at the recently mentioned Patterson Park though, and that ground is formidable. I do think had those RN ships been able to get closer to McHenry they just might have reduced it to rubble. As it was they were fairly fat out near where the Key Bridge is now. Could not get any closer I suspect due to the pinching of the land mass near where the Fairfield Yard is narrowing the entrance to the Inner Harbor. I've always marveled about that bombardment - 25 hours from mortar and rocket barges (famous Congreave rockets) with next to no damage done and one civilian death. I think, perhaps, the line of scuttled ships along the reaches of the Patapsco may have raised a caution sign to the British naval commander(s), hence the distance kept. I have contemplated, many times, those men under Armistead at the fort, being shelled all the time. I'm quite sure they found little of the glory the national anthem hails. As for Patterson Park, it's my understanding that around Hampstead Hill the Brit Col. Arthur Brooke estimated he faced 22,000 militia and 100 cannon behind earthworks - Cockburn out in the river couldn't neutralize one of the main batteries (memory says it was named 'Rogers Bastion') and Brooke withdrew. But you're correct pointing out the narrowing channel there and the scuttled ships added to the challenge.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 10, 2014 15:33:32 GMT -6
I once, from the sea wall at McHenry, observed HMS Intrepid come through there and into the Inner Harbor, and she took it very slow past those narrows
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 10, 2014 16:41:31 GMT -6
I am also from the Baltimore area(A. A. County). Much good history near all of central MD, B&O Rail Road founded 1827, Tom Thumb R.R. run from Balt.-Ellicott Mills, B-57 Bomber built and tested at G.L. Martin (Middle River), Antietam Battle, Orioles, Colts, much history in Annapolis, and etc. I am even old enough to have taken one of the last rides on the Ferry, before the Bay Bridge opened. Maybe I am history as well!
I am a great grandson of a Santee Sioux, who moved east and married a girl from Baltimore when Inkpaduta went west.
My reason to butt in on time line discussion is that much would have had to have been compressed into a very short time, if Native Americans are to be believed. Time and distance issues are critical here, not to mention played out horses. I am not sure Stab or any other scouts had time to ride back and forth while attempting to steal ponies. I think their stories are as much to curry favor with their employers as anything else. While the native Americans of that era did not express time in the conventional way we do, they make it clear that from the time Reno attacked to the time Custer was cut off at the river, Stab would have had little time for pony wrangling and riding east to west then west to east. Thoughts?
Scott, a Hopkins LAX logo, no wonder you have problems with English, heck the fact that you are on a site concerned with history is amazing in and of itself. Just kidding! I have monitored this site many times, and garnered much worthwhile info. This discussion prompted my first reply, as it alludes to Peter Thompson and his tale, a story I have yet to figure out. Thank you all for the education and food for thought. The fact I am from BALTIMORE explains any problem I have with the English language. As to history? Hmmm...considering B'more is the home of Fort McHenry, the Battle of North Point and The Star Spangled Banner I have some basics; at least a bit more than most who sing the anthem at sports events, funerals and the like
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Post by fred on Jan 10, 2014 17:37:09 GMT -6
... much would have had to have been compressed into a very short time, if Native Americans are to be believed. Time and distance issues are critical here, not to mention played out horses. I am not sure Stab or any other scouts had time to ride back and forth while attempting to steal ponies.... While the native Americans of that era did not express time in the conventional way we do, they make it clear that from the time Reno attacked to the time Custer was cut off at the river, Stab would have had little time for pony wrangling and riding east to west then west to east. Many of the Indian accounts contain considerable time-compression, so you are correct about that. As for Stab, he was a scout-corporal, and one of the older Rees on the campaign. Whether or not that had anything to do with it, he was not involved in any of the horse-stealing: he never crossed the river. In all likelihood his horse broke down: he is considered one of several Ree stragglers, only joining the thieves somewhere short of Reno Hill. As for the time-lines involved in this event, you don't pin the tail on the Indian donkey. And contrary of the beliefs and desires of so many "students," writers, and historians, this whole shebang took a lot less time than most believe, starting earlier and ending earlier. The consensus is the Custer fighting ended somewhere between 5:20 and 6:20, in either case 40 minutes to an hour and forty minutes too late. Where your doubts run into trouble, however, is in your perception of events. I doubt very seriously if scouts rode "back and forth while attempting to steal ponies." First of all, Varnum lost all his Ree scouts during the trek down Reno Creek and there are no indications any Rees preceded Custer's column by any great distance. We know they were ahead somewhat, however, because they certainly didn't stop while Custer divided his regiment and we also know Hare and Varnum moved ahead of the command. We also know Rees reached the lone tepee ahead of Custer, so their horses-- as a group-- couldn't have been that fatigued. As for the pony-stealers, we have accounts from Varnum, Wallace, Davern, Hare, and others, telling us the scouts preceded Reno down the valley (on his left), closer to the pony herds, some of which were being driven-- and in all likelihood, overtaken by the scouts-- by young boys who fled. So again, the pony theft took place prior to Reno dismounting and well before Custer reached 3,411. The Ree accounts hold up extremely well when distances are considered and they are tied in with attendant events related by whites. As for the condition of their horses, I find no reason to believe they were any worse off than the troopers' and since they were generally smaller and had greater stamina-- so I am told-- overall, they were probably in better shape than most. You are correct, however, and most people do not know there were several Ree stragglers, so all in all, there is validity to some of your argument. As for Custer being "cut off at the river," you need to be more specific: where? And "cut off..."? Personally, I find there was plenty of time for the scouts to do all they said they did and at reasonable speeds, speeds not causing any breakdowns... or at least many breakdowns. I have asked you to provide specifics. If you wish me to do the same, I would be happy to oblige... within reason. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 10, 2014 18:46:02 GMT -6
Specifics, lets see if I can comply. First Native American horses were smaller, more agile, and generally faster, over short distances. They were much like the quarter horse of today. There is a story of one soldier who broke through the Native American lines and even with a exhausted horse would have out distanced those chasing him had he not shot himself.
Custer cut off and shot at Medicine Tail Coulee, probably less than 30mins. after Reno's initial attack. Which also leads me to think Curley, Custer, girl B.S..
I maybe wrong regarding Stab, it would not be the first time. Only stating what I have heard/ read.
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Post by wild on Jan 10, 2014 20:09:49 GMT -6
There is a story of one soldier who broke through the Native American lines and even with a exhausted horse would have out distanced those chasing him had he not shot himself. And there is the story of the last sighting of Captain Smith of Titanic fame.He was seen in the water handing a child into one of the lifeboats.
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Post by fred on Jan 10, 2014 20:20:10 GMT -6
First Native American horses were smaller, more agile, and generally faster, over short distances. They were much like the quarter horse of today. A gallop depends on the horse’s condition and athletic ability. Some horses are not built to run fast and may only do a fast canter at their best; however, the gallop is about 30 MPH. Thoroughbreds, which are bred for running distance but not speed, have been clocked at over 40 MPH. Quarter horses, bred and raced for short distances at speed, can reach 50 MPH in short bursts. The distance from the divide to Ford A is 11.81 miles and I believe Custer made that trip at a pace somewhat under 9 MPH. I do not find that an onerous speed, especially since I do not believe it was done methodically. In other words, the move was made in speed-ups and slow-downs, even to the point of walking. For a horse tired and somewhat worn-out, that may have been too much, regardless. There were 24 Ree scouts (excluding Bloody Knife who rode with Custer until the lone tepee) and excluding Stab, six stragglers. That represents 25%, a far greater percentage than fell out among the soldiers (1.4%). In addition, there were four Dakota and six Crow scouts, none of whom fell out. By the way, I do not include Stab as a straggler, though some historians/writers do. There are indications Stab rode with Benteen, then moved ahead of him, re-joining his friends, so I carry him with Benteen, at least initially. In all likelihood, this was Corporal Foley of C Company. First of all, I do not buy the Custer-shot-at-Ford B business. To me, it is one of the most troublesome theories leading to too many unanswerable questions, and while some prominent members of this board buy it hook, line, and sinker, to me it is unsupportable, illogical, and makes a mockery out of any move north... where, of course, all the bodies were found. Even contemporaries of the day refused to buy into it. Generally, it is most used by Custer-apologists trying to explain away accusations of his bungling. They needn't bother. As for the timing you present, it is way off the mark and I do not know from where you got it... pardon the correction or what must seem like school-marming... but like most timing statements, it is also unsupportable. First of all, indications are that Reno started down the LBH valley and dismounted his command at 1:35 PM. Custer reached Ford B at 2:55 PM. Reno was already on his hilltop. Not sure what you mean by this, but if that is a comment impugning Curley's literary contributions, I quite agree with you. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by bc on Jan 11, 2014 0:58:09 GMT -6
Specifics, lets see if I can comply. First Native American horses were smaller, more agile, and generally faster, over short distances. They were much like the quarter horse of today. There is a story of one soldier who broke through the Native American lines and even with a exhausted horse would have out distanced those chasing him had he not shot himself.
Custer cut off and shot at Medicine Tail Coulee, probably less than 30mins. after Reno's initial attack. Which also leads me to think Curley, Custer, girl B.S..
I maybe wrong regarding Stab, it would not be the first time. Only stating what I have heard/ read. Not quite on the quarter horses. They are built big, wide, and tall. They have large front shoulders and rear hips. That is what gives them the power to run those short distances. They have a shorter torso than a thorobred but still longer than the native american horse. Today's mustang are like the native american horses and the regular cav used a lot of them as well. I've owned quarter horses and have mustangs now. The mustang, like the NA horses they came from (and before that they were Spanish horses), are generally smaller, leaner, and shorter. Small hips and shoulders. They are built for loping and trotting for long distances and in the wild today they can run for miles. They weigh a lot less. Most people around here have quarter horses especially for ranch work, roping, and rodeo. They are made to be quick out of the gate. bc
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 11, 2014 4:44:20 GMT -6
First Native American horses were smaller, more agile, and generally faster, over short distances. They were much like the quarter horse of today. A gallop depends on the horse’s condition and athletic ability. Some horses are not built to run fast and may only do a fast canter at their best; however, the gallop is about 30 MPH. Thoroughbreds, which are bred for running distance but not speed, have been clocked at over 40 MPH. Quarter horses, bred and raced for short distances at speed, can reach 50 MPH in short bursts. The distance from the divide to Ford A is 11.81 miles and I believe Custer made that trip at a pace somewhat under 9 MPH. I do not find that an onerous speed, especially since I do not believe it was done methodically. In other words, the move was made in speed-ups and slow-downs, even to the point of walking. For a horse tired and somewhat worn-out, that may have been too much, regardless. There were 24 Ree scouts (excluding Bloody Knife who rode with Custer until the lone tepee) and excluding Stab, six stragglers. That represents 25%, a far greater percentage than fell out among the soldiers (1.4%). In addition, there were four Dakota and six Crow scouts, none of whom fell out. By the way, I do not include Stab as a straggler, though some historians/writers do. There are indications Stab rode with Benteen, then moved ahead of him, re-joining his friends, so I carry him with Benteen, at least initially. In all likelihood, this was Corporal Foley of C Company. First of all, I do not buy the Custer-shot-at-Ford B business. To me, it is one of the most troublesome theories leading to too many unanswerable questions, and while some prominent members of this board buy it hook, line, and sinker, to me it is unsupportable, illogical, and makes a mockery out of any move north... where, of course, all the bodies were found. Even contemporaries of the day refused to buy into it. Generally, it is most used by Custer-apologists trying to explain away accusations of his bungling. They needn't bother. As for the timing you present, it is way off the mark and I do not know from where you got it... pardon the correction or what must seem like school-marming... but like most timing statements, it is also unsupportable. First of all, indications are that Reno started down the LBH valley and dismounted his command at 1:35 PM. Custer reached Ford B at 2:55 PM. Reno was already on his hilltop. Not sure what you mean by this, but if that is a comment impugning Curley's literary contributions, I quite agree with you. Best wishes, Fred. I do not blame Custer in any way for bungling, but if he was shot at ford B and the command decided to return to the hilltop to wait for support of Benteen and the packs their demise was then assured. Even if wounded Custer, himself could have called for this withdrawal. He could see that he was going to lose too many of his command to pull off his grand scheme of capturing the women and children, in a timely fashion. There were more warriors left in this area of the camp than expected. He would also have needed medical attention post haste. I think someone else in the command structure made the call. They returned to what they considered high ground and hunkered down, in a deployed fashion, to wait for the support that would never come. Even if Benteen had arrived it would have only meant a greater slaughter around LSH.
I can take "school marming", to learn is to live. It was my understanding that once Custer knew that Reno was engaged, and the warriors were massing in the lower end of the camp, he moved as rapidly as possible to ford B, already preselected by the scouts.
I consider myself "marmed"
Regards, Tom
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