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Post by quincannon on May 23, 2012 12:49:23 GMT -6
Strong case Fred. Very strong.
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Post by ulan on May 23, 2012 13:37:40 GMT -6
Hat waving and "Hurrah boys, we've got them!" isn´t a indicator of the situation on the battlefield, but it is just to motvate your men for the attack.
If Custer indeed thought the fight is allready won when he sended Martini with order, then this is just one reason more he probably not serious awaited Benteen on his side. And again his order didn´t say that.
If Custer don´t saw Reno´s problems and the strenght of the indians, he should know it after Boston(you said that) reports to him the retreat of Reno´s command. If he thought now his postion should be the battlefield base(what i doubt) he had to send another messenger to make this clear to his commanders. On the other hand if he know now about Reno´s retreat than he had to consider that Reno was in trouble and needs help.
The "right thing" for Benteen was probably not to leave Reno and his wounded alone. What Custer´s plan was he didn´t know and there was no reason Benteen had any idea that Custer possibly waiting for him. No, that all makes no sense to me i am sorry.
The whole theory that Custer´s plan was to go for the fleeing indians is just a theory. If Custer allready try to cross the river but found a handfull of shooting indians(so what), why he should turn back and try it further up instead of going on where he was? That theory sounds a bit like: "I try to cut the fleeing indians but it seemed not possible because there were so many fighting indians in my way".
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Post by benteen on May 23, 2012 13:42:44 GMT -6
Capt,
Thanks for taking the time I appreciate it. My problem in dealing with this engagements that I look at events through terribly biased eyes (Which means I will never really be a student) I dislike Custer, no not the soldier but the man himself.General George A Custer was a brave and gallant soldier, he was a soldier that died in the service of his country and I honor him as I do all those that did.
However I think the man himself was a self serving, egotistical, glory hound that cared only about himself. certainly not his men, and if we go by what he told Capt Ludlow "Ill break away from Terry just like I did Sully" then he wasnt concerned with the mission either, just a victory for himself. The LBH was for Custer as Major Elliot said "Heres to a brevet or a coffin" Well, he got his cofin, but unfortunatly so did 209 troopers who didnt share in his visions of fame
I guess what I am saying is that perhaps unfairly I find fault with everything he did.it bothers me when the people on the other side of Custer (His adorers)try to dishonor other brave officers who did the best they posibly could under the circumstances given them, for no other reason to find excuses for their general. I am what I am, it is what it is, I thank you once again for your post and trying to bring some logic to my thinking with your knowledge
Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on May 23, 2012 14:28:01 GMT -6
I have three questions that are probably going to start one hell of an argument, but it's only Wednesday so what the heck.
Did George Armstrong Custer die for his country? Yes we all know he died wearing the uniform of the United States, but did he die for his country? Dan prompted this question by saying the he was self serving, a glory hound etc. etc, statments with which I agree. It seems to me knowing full well that man cannot serve two masters, which one did he serve? Which one did he always serve? I ask the second because the answer to it may very well be different from the first.
Was George Armstrong Custer a very smart guy? Is there anything in his background, academic achievement, or virtually anything the man did in his entire life which would cause you to seek his advice, as being a man of sound judgment?
What would any of you think about having George Armstrong Custer as a next door neighbor, not in the present time of course, but say pre West Point in Monroe, Michigan. Would you lend him your lawn mower? Would you invite him over on Sunday afternoon to watch the Giants? Would you let your sister date the guy?
None of these questions focus on his ability on a battlefield either pro or con. They are just questions that come to mind while reading Dan and the others and trying to put a prime coat on IJMS Tone.
Love to hear what you all think.
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Post by justvisiting on May 23, 2012 14:44:06 GMT -6
I have three questions that are probably going to start one hell of an argument, but it's only Wednesday so what the heck. Did George Armstrong Custer die for his country? Yes we all know he died wearing the uniform of the United States, but did he die for his country. Dan prompted this question by saying the he was self serving, a glory hound etc. etc, statments with which I agree. It seems to me knowing full well that man cannot serve two masters, which one did he serve? Which one did he always serve? I ask the second because the answer to it may very well be different from the first. Was George Armstrong Custer a very smart guy? Is there anything in his background, academic achievement, or virtually anything the man did in his entire life which would cause you to seek his advice, as being a man of sound judgment? What would any of you think about having George Armstrong Custer as a next door neighbor, not in the present time of course, but say pre West Point in Monroe, Michigan. Would you lend him your lawn mower? Would you invite him over on Sunday afternoon to watch the Giants? Would you let your sister date the guy? None of these questions focus on his ability on a battlefield either pro or con. They are just questions that come to mind while reading Dan and the others and trying to put a prime coat on IJMS Tone. Love to hear what you all think. Yes, GAC died for his country. Whether the policy he died for was right or wrong, he died trying to implement that legal policy. My opinon is that GAC wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer when it came to intellectual prowness. However, he did have a well-developed tactical sense which served him well with the exceptions of Trevallian Station and LBH. Yes, I think once you got him talking about something else besides himself, he'd be a nice next door neighbor...however, the fact that he didn't drink might be a major negative for most of us which could be offset with the fact that he was supposedly a lousy card player. JV
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Post by quincannon on May 23, 2012 14:58:34 GMT -6
JV: I take that as a Yes, a No ( Don't forget the Buckland Races) and a Sort Of.
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Post by justvisiting on May 23, 2012 15:01:28 GMT -6
I had forgotten that...but wasn't Kill Cavalry in charge of that fiasco and GAC an innocent by-stander?
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Post by quincannon on May 23, 2012 15:08:28 GMT -6
Yes, I suppose so, but he got his innocent ass run back to Haymarket just the same. Best thing about the Buckland Races as far as the U S Army was concerned was the Mongolian Bar B Q night at the Vint Hill Farm Station Officer's Club, but alas that too is long gone.
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Post by lew on May 23, 2012 15:22:24 GMT -6
Did Custer die for his Country? I guess, it's like asking if the if the chemical operator on duty at Bhopal, India died for Union Carbide? I'd say they both died for a paycheck. Was George Armstrong Custer a very smart guy? I'd say he was intelligent. Knew how to play the game in the military. Seems he was pretty close to McClellan, Pleasonton,and Sheridan. Would I want him as a neighbor? Not really. Seems he only used you as long as you could help him. (Example-he thought McClellan was the greatest--then wouldn't vote for him in the 1864 election)
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Post by quincannon on May 23, 2012 15:35:58 GMT -6
I will take that as a Perhaps, a Clever Sycophant, and a definate No, not wanting to share a property line with a two faced bastard.
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Post by benteen on May 23, 2012 16:19:36 GMT -6
Colonel,
You are a very,very perceptive man. You picked right up on the way I intentionaly worded my statement. Well done. I would not have liked to have been an officer in your command and try to slip something by you, it aint going to happen
Im not well versed on Custer during the CW other than he was victorious. I know he was always under someone elses command. How much of his victories can be attributed to tactical knowledge and how much to his raw courage I cant comment on. When you win they dont examine your actions only when you lose. Out West however, when he was on his own, I believe he was poor to say the least. He was fooled every time. He was fooled by Pawnee Killer,fooled at the Washita, fooled on the Yellowstone where at the last minute he realized he being drawn into a trap and had to take his men to the cover of some timber("Timber"Where have I heard that before. Didnt another Officer do that and was accused of being a coward, a drunk, an incompetant) by Custer fans. At the Little Big Horn his plan (If he had any) was predicated on not an assumption, but his absolute certainty that the warriors would run....They didnt....Fooled again......For the last time.
Marry my Sister, heck no, he would gamble his paycheck away and I would have to support them<G>
Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on May 23, 2012 16:41:25 GMT -6
Dan: I take it then, that watching the Giants' game on Sunday afternoon is out too.
To be thought of as victorious, it helps when you happen to be on the winning side.
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Post by benteen on May 23, 2012 16:51:52 GMT -6
Dan: I take it then, that watching the Giants'' game on Sunday afternoon is out too. To be thought of as victorious, it helps when you happen to be on the winning side. LOL...Yes Colonel he would not be welcome. (Probably an Eagle fan anyway) Yes sir, it helps alot to be on the winning side. Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on May 23, 2012 17:08:30 GMT -6
Well Dan, I have it on good authority he is neither a Redskins nor a Chiefs fan. It was once rumored that while at West Point he secretly supported Navy in the annual get together, that is until "Billy" The Goat bit him in the ass. Who said that Custer received his first war wound at LBH?
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Post by wild on May 23, 2012 19:10:27 GMT -6
Custer did not die for his country.He died in the service of his country. The US was not under any threat and did not require defending. Somehow I think defending one's country is of a higher order than politics by other means. The Viet Vets might hold a different view.
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