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Post by quincannon on May 23, 2012 19:36:52 GMT -6
Richard: I will take that as an uninspired Yes, an I Never Thought About It, and a rousing I Don't Give A Damn.
Can I borrow your lawnmower this coming weekend?
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Post by wild on May 23, 2012 19:49:01 GMT -6
Hi Colonel We face North and grass just does not grow in north facing gardens.I gave up on it long ago and covered everything in decorative gravel. And if you are wondering what has me up at this hour 2.45 am I had the grandkids in McDonalds and had a coffee.Caffine is just like himself we just do not agree.
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Post by quincannon on May 23, 2012 20:14:01 GMT -6
Wondering why you were up at 0245? No, I just figured you were making up a good excuse not to lend me your lawnmower. That will teach you to refrain from Scotish Restaurants, or what we call over here Renaldo's Chateau du Slop.
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Post by ulan on May 23, 2012 22:20:18 GMT -6
Well, i guess the problem is that all this stuff had been discussed many times before here and so the interest to repeat battle plans or actions is to low.
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Post by quincannon on May 23, 2012 22:45:11 GMT -6
Ulan: This forum is full of such discussion going back I don't know how many years.
Sometimes we all get burned out, and these things get a triffle off subject from such things as Benteen wondering off God knows where to find God knows what.
Then there is Reno. Our friends on the other board, some anyway this very day said that Fred, The Godfather of Custer Soul Music, cast aspersions on Saint George by saying that he went off leaving Reno to his fate. Of course these are the same people who have stated early and often that Reno, with the average of a hundred or so rounds per man could have, should have, held the timber postion until the second coming of Christ. Now faced with such hypocracy is it any wonder we must from time to time refresh ourselves at the well of diverse discussion and feeble attempts at humor.
As for plans, who the hell knows what the plan was (FOR SURE). When you find someone who has documented proof that Custer told anyone what he intended to do in detail and not vague "pitch into - Come on be quick - Ride to the sound of the guns before Marcus gets drunk again" slop for brains orders, then I expect you to report your find straight away.
Now I will state my plan in the form of a fragmentary order sent via internet to all concerned - I am going to bed.
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Post by steve1956 on May 24, 2012 0:41:54 GMT -6
Catching up after night shift..On Custer as a neighbour,which I guess means as a person....I reckon if he hadn't got that early staff position,but worked his way up regimentally,he could have turned out completely different........
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 24, 2012 3:37:59 GMT -6
Hey Chuck, when you get a lawnmower, can you lend it to me please, mine cashed in its chips at the weekend, I will have to go to Tesco direct to order one before the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee just in case we get a few folks round for a bit of a do.
I agree over Custer’s verbal commands, the guy had a lot to learn in the man management department, his quick one line orders could leave the officer involved to act on his own judgement when contact was made:
Custer’s orders to Reno via Lt. Cook were, move at as rapid a gait as you think prudent and to charge afterwards, and you will be supported by the whole outfit.
Custer’s note to Benteen (again wrote by Lt. Cook) Benteen, Come on. Big village, be quick. Bring packs. W.W. Cooke. P.S. Bring Packs. I think that the only Military person who Custer confided in that afternoon was his Brother Tom, Lt Cook and Sgt Maj. Sharrow could well have been mere bystanders.
Steve, get your head down mate, those night shifts are horrendous, especially when you have a gang of noisy layabouts living next door to you, we had to move house because of such louts.
Ian.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 24, 2012 5:18:06 GMT -6
I know I am being picky here, but can you class McDonalds as a Restaurant; I would place it in the category of a fast food joint.
Ian.
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 24, 2012 6:52:06 GMT -6
Fast food was my first meal in a MCRD chow hall.
Ready seat, ready out ----less than 10 seconds
Semper Fi
AZ Ranger
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Post by steve1956 on May 24, 2012 8:04:04 GMT -6
Steve, get your head down mate, those night shifts are horrendous, especially when you have a gang of noisy layabouts living next door to you, we had to move house because of such louts. Ian. People mowing the lawn are on the flaying alive list as well..... ....I was thinking last night.....Can't recall any other regimental-sized action where the characters of the Officers have been analysed to such a degree? ie down to company level.
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Post by fred on May 24, 2012 8:13:41 GMT -6
Well, i guess the problem is that all this stuff had been discussed many times before here and so the interest to repeat battle plans or actions is to low. Ulan, If that were the case, this board would have shut down years ago. It is people like you who keep it alive... and it is people like you who make me constantly think and constantly refine my thoughts and ideas. Sometimes we bucker; sometimes people (like me!) get too upset with others; and sometimes we go into divergent courses. And you know what? We always come back to what interests us so much. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 24, 2012 8:19:01 GMT -6
Yes Fred, every new member can in some small way inject a new perspective on the battle.
I agree Steve, even from 2nd Lieutenant up the names are ingrained into your mind, with so much info on every officer.
Bet you had a nice view of the Obstacle course though AZ, just the thought of running off all that food must have given you indigestion.
Ian.
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Post by steve1956 on May 24, 2012 8:30:00 GMT -6
I've just got "Custer and his Commands" from Amazon....The photos are so clear that they all seem like real people rather than just names.....
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Post by quincannon on May 24, 2012 9:11:17 GMT -6
Steve: I agree. It however is the motivation behind the analysis that must be looked at. If we seek to find out just what happened, you would think that such analysis would be confined to the key players, and not every Tom, Dick, and Harry with shoulder straps. On the other hand the battle was such a disaster in so many ways, it may very well have been the action(s) of one seemingly insignificant player that leads us to the cause of that disaster.
The only rub here is that no matter if you look only at key players or get down in the deep weeds of investigation, work like Fred has done, the inescapable conclusion must be that the commander, his actions, his orders, his performance was the prime cause of what happened on the Little Big Horn.
This is not slamming Custer for its own sake. The man was flawed, and I think you have presented the reason not once, but twice now as I recall, he was not sufficiently exposed to the school of the soldier. He did not fully realize by the fact that he had scant time as a company officer, not even commanding a company I believe (expect correction if required), that he was not fully aware of the capability and limitations of the tool he commanded. That is not his fault. That was the stupidity of the times.
Of course it can work both ways. Dick Ewell said that he knew everything there was to know about commanding a company of dragoons but nothing about commanding an army corps. Many of our own officers during WWII spent a lot of time ten and twelve years as captains and when swiftly elevated to higher command as war approached and first combat was joined, fell on their faces, as they were still trying to lead companies and they were called upon to lead divisions.
So in the end it is nothing new. It has shown itself in one of these two forms over the centuries. The one thing though that rings true, there is always a day of reckoning for these men, and it usually turns out badly.
No Steve, but yes. The three questions were meant to examine three facits of the mans personality.
Was Custer in service of a cause larger than himself? The superficial answer is yes, but was Custer's personality of the type that he thought of what was good for Custer first and if the orders, mission, or country, was served too, that was alright with him.
Was Custer a man you could go to in the assurence that he understood you and in time of need give you sound advice or direction based upon good judgment, and not some perhaps hidden agenda of manipulation. Could you rely on what the man told you? Would you have confidence in what he told you.
The third question is really unimportant on the surface but the answer reveals a lot about the man. Was he a person you would wish to socialize with? Could you spend those idle hours with him and feel some connection?
None of these questions address battlefield performance. I tried in asking them to purposefully stay away from that.
I would suggest to you, if you have not already done so, read "Once an Eagle" by Anton Myer. Look at the differences portrayed between the two main characters Sam Damon on the one hand a throughly professional officer who always did things the right way for the right reasons, and Courtney Massengale ( a douche bag in more ways than name) who always did things for only one reason - himself.
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Post by elkslayer on May 28, 2012 21:47:16 GMT -6
Of course these are the same people who have stated early and often that Reno, with the average of a hundred or so rounds per man could have, should have, held the timber postion until the second coming of Christ. I think it was Custer in 76 where people interviewed stated that the rushed ammo to Reno Hill when the pack train showed up, but the boxes weren't opened...ie, they weren't low on ammo. Jim
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