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Post by wild on Mar 23, 2012 18:45:57 GMT -6
Colonel.There is a book recently published ---The Coldest Winter covering the Korean War.Must buy it.Have you read it? My problem is I buy more books than I can possibly read. Regards
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Post by fred on Mar 23, 2012 19:15:19 GMT -6
Theodor Morell was a fat, worthless pig... a real quack... the perfect physician for Hitler. He was even disliked by the inner circle.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 23, 2012 19:57:54 GMT -6
Where to start:
Fred : I know you have a way with words and an accomplished author, but the ability to string together fat, worthless pig....a real quack, and best wishes in such a tiny two line affair leaves me breathless.
Richard: No I have not. There are three essentials on Korea for my money that give a complete view. Blair's "Forgotten War" Fehrenbach's "This Kind of War" and the five volumes written by Roy Appleman. I have yet to complete Billy Mossman's "official history" in the Army Black Book series. Covers much the same ground as the others though and sheds no new light. Another set (two of three published so far) are by Allen Millett. I find Millett very good on political detail, but short on combat narrative. Robert Leckie also had one out about forty years ago (still available) that I would make the very same comments about. Marshall had "River and the Gauntlet" and "Pork Chop Hill". As a writer I think he stinks. It is almost like he is writing about a subject which he has no, or perhaps superficial, knowledge. There are a lot of lesser works. If Coldest Winter is by the guy who used to write for Parade Magazine I think I have it around here somewhere. I will look it up.
Back to Stug:
Ian: My impression was that a lot of the Stug IIIs were remanufactured PzKw III's. Same with the Stug IV's. Can you verify?
Fred: The Stug concept seems deeply engrained in German doctrine. They built a 90mm gun low slung "Son of Stug" in the late 1950's and I recall it remained in service for a very long time. Can't remember what they called it. Marder comes to mind but that was an IFV.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 24, 2012 4:03:21 GMT -6
Chuck, most of the Stug IIIs were built on new Pz III chassis except for 173 Stug III Ausf Gs which were built on Pz III Ausf Ms sent back from the front for overhaul.
The Stug IV, Jagdpanzer IV and Pz IV/70 were built on the same production lines as the Pz Mk IV, both the Vomag and Alktt factories built all of the Stug IV and its variants plus the Pz Mk IVs simultaneously, but I can’t find any data on any Pz IVs sent back for overhaul and being converted to Stug IVs.
Going on what you and Fred said about German Panzer Divisions being top heavy in Tanks (the U.S. 3rd Armoured Division and two more which fought in France that were classed as heavy Divisions could also fall under this category, having two Regiments of Tanks) I found this TO&E about German type 45 Panzer Divisions (by George Nafziger, I have three of his books and they are a great source for this type of data):
1 x Panzer Battalion per Division. Each containing: 2 x Panther Companies (10 x Panthers each) 2 x Pz Mk IV Companies (10 x Pz Mk IVs each)
40 tanks per Division, big drop from 1939 when the 3rd Panzer Division had 391 for the invasion of Poland, but with the tremendous losses in Russia and the west plus allied bombing this total could not be kept up, Hitler demanded more Panzer Divisions as the war grew, and to achieve this they started to reduce the number of Regiments to a Division, rather like having 10 Panzer Divisions containing two Panzer Regiments and then making 20 Panzer Divisions containing one Panzer Regiment, looks good on paper but battles are not fought on paper and this reduction had a big effect in the field.
Had a quick look at the different capabilities of the big four Tanks from 1945.
M26 Pershing: 90mm M3 L/52 Gun. 130mm @ 500m @ 30°.
IS-3: 122mm D-25t L/43 Gun. 135mm @ 500m @ 30°.
Comet: 77mm HV L/55 Gun. 140mm @ 500m @ 30°.
Tiger II: 88mm KwK 43 L/71 Gun. 185mm @ 500m @ 30°.
This could change depending on what ammo each gun was using. The frontal armour of the Tiger II ranged from 100mm to 150mm, so the Pershing could knock out a Tiger II under 500m if it hit its lower frontal hull (100mm).
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 24, 2012 8:03:18 GMT -6
Ian: Only two of our AD's which fought in France retained the heavy design with two armored regiments and an armored infantry regiment these were:
2nd Armored Division (Hell on Wheels) 66th Armored Regiment (Iron Knights) 67th Armored Regiment 41st Armored Infantry Regiment
3rd Armored Division (Spearhead) 32nd Armored Regiment (Elvis Presley's Own - my name for them) 33rd Armored Regiment 36th Armored Infantry Regiment
The only other U S Armored Division that deployed and fought in an active theater as a heavy was in North Africa and Italy:
1st Armored Division (Old Ironsides) 1st Armored Regiment (1st Regiment of Dragoons) (ex 1st Cavalry) 13th Armored Regiment (13th Horse) (ex 13th Cavalry) 6th Armored Infantry Regiment (The Regulars)
Orders dated 20 July 1944 (after Anzio)reorganized the division in theater as follows
1st Tank Battalion (Regiment less 2nd Battalion; 2nd Battalion disbanded) 4th Tank Battalion (3rd Battalion and Maintenance Company 13th Armored Regiment) 13th Tank Battalion (HHC, Service Co, Companies D, E, F, 13th Armored Regiment; remainder of regiment disbanded) 6th Armored Infantry Battalion (Regiment less 2nd and 3rd Battalions) 11th Armored Infantry Battalion (2nd Battalion, 6th AIR) 14th Armored Infantry Battalion (3rd Battalion, 6th AIR)
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Post by fred on Mar 24, 2012 19:10:09 GMT -6
Chuck,
I did some hunting, but could not find the book I was looking for... with the information about the 8th Pz Regiment. Must be in a sealed box underneath some of the others.
I did find one I had forgotten about... you and Ian may find it interesting. I have not read it yet, but I brought it down and will begin it soon (along with about six others!!!). It is titled, Panzerkrieg, by Peter McCarthy and Mike Syron; Carroll & Graf, 2002. Book has lots of good stuff.
Syron is an archaeologist and McCarthy a journalist. They met at University College Dublin.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 25, 2012 4:25:23 GMT -6
I will keep that data for future use Chuck (if you don’t mind mate) it will be of use further down the line, good stuff.
Hi Fred, when you mentioned the 8th Panzer Regiment, did you mean the 8th Panzer Division?, the 8th Panzer Regiment was a part of the 4th Panzer Brigade and was transferred to the 15th Panzer Division, in 1941 the 15th was sent to the western desert serving along with my favourite German Division the 21st Panzer, when I mean favourite I mean that this Division went through some major changes in its life time, its TO&E in 1944 was most unusual, ‘’check it out’’ it had a mix of both German and French equipment and it was the first to engage the allies on the 6th of June (a bit too late to do any damage).
Some of the German units in France made use of the vast amount of material left by the French Army in 1940, Google Major Alfred Becker and see how he converted captured French Armour and made them into Assault Guns and Tank Destroyers.
One last think Chaps, for some years I have been trying to solve a mystery concerning the Panzer Lehr Division, I have seen in my Books that in Feb 1944 it was equipped with Tiger IIs, well being a training Division it could have been seen these (some sources say 14) vehicles to evaluate them before they were put into massed production, but did they actually receive them, some books say that they did and they were destroyed by their crews when the allies landed, and some say they were sent back to Germany before Overlord, I can’t find any data on them being destroyed in action in the Normandy area, if Fred, Chuck, Richard or anyone else has any info on this subject I will be most grateful.
Fred them McCarthy's get everywhere, my Uncle was called Peter McCarthy he won the Military Medal at Dieppe.
Ian.
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Post by fred on Mar 25, 2012 7:45:12 GMT -6
Fred, when you mentioned the 8th Panzer Regiment, did you mean the 8th Panzer Division?, the 8th Panzer Regiment was a part of the 4th Panzer Brigade and was transferred to the 15th Panzer Division... Ian, Chuck brought this up, not me... he said "regiment," not "division." I may look again today, but I am sure you are correct. This is not a lot different than their adoption of the light Czech 38(t). As a MBT it was worthless, but it was a decent scout vehicle, tracked, and not without use. The French Char B1 was considered superior to anything the Germans fielded in 1940... and the French had more of them. A "WWI look" about it, but effective nonetheless. I may have some information on this, but I don't know. I do know less than 500 of the Tiger IIs saw action... so.... Chuck, I wonder if the picture you saw of the Tiger with its turret being blown off was Michael Wittmann's. He was the top tanker in the WWII German army. Killed 138 tanks, 132 ant-tank guns. Killed with his crew when his Tiger's turret was "de-capped." It would be interesting if it actually was Wittmann. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 25, 2012 8:08:36 GMT -6
Ian: 8th Panzer Regiment. OK 4th Panzer Brigade. The book I was looking at only had the Panzer Divisions.
The 6th and 8th Panzer Divisions operated 35(t)'s and the 7th 38(t)'s in France and shortly after until the re-equiped. Somebody operated the Char B in German service but don't know who at the moment.
I have the complete divisional order of battle for the U S Army in WWII should you require anything, including who provided what when the AD's reorganized in the light configuration.
My information says Panzer Lehr had a battalion of Panthers and a battalion of Mark IVs
Have you read von Luck's book? He was in 7th Panzer in France with Rommel, commanded one of the recon battalions in Africa, I think the 33rd, and was with the reconstituted 21st Panzer in Normandy. Decent book.
Fred: Not Wittmann. He was killed in mid 44, I believe in Caen. This was definately a Tiger II and it was in the last days of the war. 9th AD did not get Pershings until February or March 1945 and then I think it was only one battalion.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 26, 2012 4:36:22 GMT -6
No Chuck I have never seen a copy of Von Lucks book, have a look for it though and thanks for the offer concerning U.S. AD it is good to know that help and info is available from a reliable source like yourself.
Sorry Fred, it was Chuck, I don’t get much time on the Computer at the weekend so I only had a quick glance, the boys take over and hog the dam thing with marathon periods taken up with playing various games and the like.
Just left you both some data to look over.
Regarding the Char B:
The Germans pressed 150 captured Car B-2s into service (60 converted to Flammwagen auf Pz B-2 (F))after the fall of France, most of them stayed in the west and number were stationed on both Guernsey and Jersey (I wonder if Hunk has any info on them) I can only find two units equipped with B-2s outside the west and these were the 223rd Panzer Company, they took four B-2s and twelve Flammwagens to Russia and the SS Division Prince Eugen, they took seven to the Balkans, + a number of the Flammwagens, the last know use of the Char B in German service was during Operation Market Garden, the British Airborne knocked out six with 6 pdr and 17 pdr AT Guns and PIATs, I think these six were Flammwagens with flamethrowers installed in place of the 75mm Gun.
In my opinion the Best French Tank to see action was the Somua-35, good armour and gun for 1940, its only limitation was the one man turret, and the poor tank commander had to do everything himself.
Regarding the Tiger IIs
The best data I have and trust is the Nafziger book ‘’The German order of Battle –Panzers and Artillery WW2’’ the info is very vague and it states ‘’on February 3rd 1944 orders were issued to convert the 316th Panzer Company into a Tiger II Company equipping it with 14 Tiger IIs, but that’s all it says, later in the book it gives the totals I have posted below and there is no mention of these 14 AFVs.
Panzer Lehr June 1944 Total Tanks Available:
9 x Stug IIIs (75mm L/48) 3 x Pz Mk IVs (75mm L/24) 101 x Pz Mk IVs (75mm L/43 & L/48) 89 x Panthers (75mm L/70) 12 x Flak Panzer 38s (t) (these were Czech 38s mounting a 20mm L/55 Flak Gun)
Regarding Wittmann
Wittmann and his three Tigers were knocked out in a cross fire by the 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry and Sherbrooke Fusiliers, they were crossing an open field at the time near the Town of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil, the attack was ordered by Kurt Meyer, without infantry support into an area were its flanks could be exposed to enemy fire, what a waste of a national hero.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 26, 2012 7:47:39 GMT -6
Ian and All: There is a series of trade paperbacks published by Stackpole Books that I think may be of interest. There are probably fifty or more. Many, at least half, deal with the German Army and SS. Included are a two volume set on Wittmann, Armoured Guardsmen (Guard's Armoured), Desert Battles, Goodwood, Rommel's Lieutenants, and a whole host of others of interest. I only have one, Key to the Bulge, about the 99th Infantry Division, but I have browsed through the others and they all look good. Border's books, now out of business, and the PX carried them, but I think you can get them direct from Stackpole or Amazon. You may wish to take a look at them at www.stackpolebooks.com
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Post by lew on Mar 26, 2012 8:23:22 GMT -6
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 26, 2012 9:42:51 GMT -6
Hi Chuck, that’s a pretty extensive list their old chum, plenty to choose from.
Hi Lew, that program has been shown over here on the History channel, a very good account of the battle with views of the ground which Wittmann met his maker.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 26, 2012 9:45:53 GMT -6
lew; Thanks for posting, great stuff.
I am always left with very mixed feeling when I watch something like this, particularly anything having to do with the Waffen SS. On one hand you have to admire their ability as soldiers, but at the same time be revolted by them as men.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 26, 2012 9:55:41 GMT -6
Yes Chuck I agree, even the Wehrmacht didn’t like the SS, it’s one thing being a Nazi but the SS were a fanatical bunch of black hearts, reminds me of the story’s over allied soldiers being killed in cold blood after surrendering, good brave soldiers but they certainly over stepped the mark and blotted there copybook in more ways than one.
Ian.
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