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Post by quincannon on Mar 22, 2012 18:24:08 GMT -6
Wait a minute you two.
William we are talking time specific here. During the Pentomic era the 82nd had the 1-16 Armor with SPATS. The 101st had 2-16 Armor equiped with the same. Both of these units were inactivated in 65. Company D, 16th Armor equiped was equiped with SPATS when it deployed with 173rd Airborne Brigade. Now the rub. Neither 1-16 or 2-16 had any people, just a collection of equipment. In Army speak they were active at zero strength. D/16 Armor coming from Okinawa was manned.
Later in the 1960's a Sheridan battalion was stood up at Fort Bragg organic to the 82nd. I think it was a battalion of the 73rd Armor, 4th Battalion maybe. They were also the last to keep Sheridan, until after Panama I believe.
Fred: You probably ran into Sheridan in 1st Squadron, 4th Cavalry, 1st ID, which was the first unit so equiped. Sheridan had a very short gun/launcher resembling a PzKwIV Auf D of the Western Desert.
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Post by fred on Mar 22, 2012 20:22:34 GMT -6
Fred: You probably ran into Sheridan in 1st Squadron, 4th Cavalry, 1st ID, which was the first unit so equiped. Sheridan had a very short gun/launcher resembling a PzKwIV Auf D of the Western Desert. You two have me spinning. Some how, I guess I have seen and remember both: clearly, the nomenclature of the Sheridan-- though I do not remember the Quarter-Horse in Vietnam (sorry, General, sir!) with them. Then again, I also remember a longer-barreled, small tracked vehicle. If I am not mistaken, the Panzer IV carried the short-barreled... 57mm, was it?... until they (Guderian, I believe) finally convinced the idiot Hitler to put a long 75mm on it. Once the longer barrel hit the sand, the damn thing became awesome (for the time). Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 22, 2012 20:31:20 GMT -6
Fred: The Panzer IVD carried a short barreled 75mm. The tank battalions at that time were organized with three PzKwIII companies and a PzKwIV company. The short barrel was for supporting fires.
The long barrel came out in late 41 I think about the same time as the III with the high velocity 57mm. When you read von Mellenthin and the Rommel Papers these are refered to as III and IV Specials.
My post above should read immediate post Pentomic era. 1-16 and 2-16 were active without troops during 64-65. The old game of faces and spaces.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 22, 2012 22:04:42 GMT -6
Fred: You know this young whippersnapper has to be brought down about three or four pegs. When you and I first started out we carried the crank action crossbow. Now there was a weapon. No clip clang like the M-1 Rifle. It came with its own indentured bolt carrier, and he never ate much. Riding a M001 Flintstone combat vehicle was for woozies. Real soldiers walked until their combat sandals fell off. I must say though that the Appian Way needed a little pothole fixing. Why, I remember that time marching to Antiock with the old Tenth Legion when we did fifty a day without thinking about it. These new guys have it easy. I hear that they get to change underwear once a month. Never would have happened in our day. No sir.
Good night William.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 23, 2012 6:04:49 GMT -6
Chuck I just had to jump in here old Chum, the Pz IV Ausf A to F (F1 actually) was mounted with a 75mm KwK 37 L/24 Gun and the Ausf F2 ( named specials as you stated) to J had a 75mm KwK 40 L/43 or L/48 Gun, the Pz Mk III started with the 37mm KwK L/46 mounted on the Ausf A to F and later up gunned to a 50mm KwK 38 L/42 Gun for the Ausf G to J, up gunned again (again named the specials) with a 50mm KwK 39 L/60 this gun was mounted on late models of the Ausf J and continued to through to the Ausf M, and it was up gunned again with the same gun the Pz Mk IV started with the 75mm KwK 37 L/24, these tanks were first issued to Tiger tank battalions in North Africa to keep infantry away from the heavier Tiger.
I have had a look at the self-propelled Guns used by the U.S. Army after WW2:
M40 GMC-155mm M1 or M2 L/45 Gun M41 HMC (Gorilla)-155mm M1 L/20 Howitzer M43 HMC-8in M1 or M2 L/25 Howitzer M19 GMC (Duster) -2 x 40mm M2 L/56 AA Guns
I think all of these could have served in Korea and maybe in Vietnam.
The Sheridan M551 was armed with the 152mm M81 Gun launcher. Ian.
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Post by fred on Mar 23, 2012 6:58:03 GMT -6
Fred: You know this young whippersnapper has to be brought down about three or four pegs. ... Good night William. You know, Queenie, you are absolutely right. He has no clue what we were used to and what we did in those earlier days. These guys today work in total comfort. Hell, I remember when we were fighting Arminius and I was in Roman Special Ops under a little-known but brilliant commander, Festus Finkus, and our reports were completely ignored, even after the hell we went through to break out of the barbarians' lines. Wow-zie! Those were the days! And look at what we went through and what it cost us. Yet we didn't pull out! As for the Panzer IIIs and IVs, virtually all my books were lost years ago in my divorce, so I submit to your brilliance and the brilliance of young Ian. Great stuff, you two! All I have left is Guderian's Panzer Leader, having lost v. Manstein's work and Rommel's; I even lost the Fuller works, though come to think of it, I have Liddell Hart's Strategy book. By the way, I don't think they brought Tigers to North Africa until very, very late... and they certainly weren't Kings. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 23, 2012 7:56:14 GMT -6
Ian: You are absolutely correct. That will teach me to go to reference, rather than rely on memory.
Fred: Tigers were in Tunisia, but only a very few. In Europe, to a GI every German tank was a King Tiger, but there were only a few battalions of them. Don't think they were at Kursk either. Mid 44 introduction I believe.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Mar 23, 2012 8:48:46 GMT -6
If you haven't already, recommend Speer's "Inside the Third Reich."
In order for him to oversee the entire Reich's production, he focused on tanks, learning all available, so that he could expand on that knowledge dealing with planes and ships. Doesn't sound like it would work, but German production was so efficient they increased under bombing in later years. His biggest detractors couldn't deny he had undeniable genius.
I had no clue what he was talking about sometimes, but he was the most competent Nazi and he writes well and knew Hitler well and dealt with him daily. His part on the Tiger Tank was interesting, Hitler's input almost sane, and yet like so much it became a fiasco. Too heavy, underpowered, but nobody had anything to hurt it absent bombs and very heavy artillery.
Very popular read once, he was on "Donohue", but don't hear about these books anymore. Must reads to understand the appeal and the idiocy of Hitler and National Socialism. For example, Hitler was terrified of going to Total War and cutting back on civvy items - like hair oil - until he had no choice. The German public was as ignorant as during the Great War till their world burned.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 23, 2012 8:51:09 GMT -6
Thanks you guy’s, sorry to have to blow my own trumpet again: Pz VI Ausf E Sd.Kfz 181(Tiger I) - 1354 produced from July 1942 to August 1944 Pz VI Ausf B Sd.Kfz 182 (Tiger II) – 489 produced from January 1944 to March 1945 Jagdtiger Sd.Kfz 186 – 77 produced from July 1944 to March 1945
Yes in Normandy every tank was a Tiger and every gun was an 88.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 23, 2012 9:30:35 GMT -6
I don't believe, contrary to conventional wisdom, that the Panther (Mark V) or both of the Tigers were as good as they were thought to be. As DC points out they had significant technical and production problems. I think the answer is more along the lines of they were better in many aspects than the competition.
The M3 and M4 had better mobility. Both the 3 and 4 were more reliable mechanicly. Where these two fell horribly short of the mark was in protection and gun power. They were kept in production at least in the case of the M4 because the iron law of mobilization is produce what you have presently on the line, and produce it in such quantity that the sheer numbers will decide the issue.
There is a piece of film that I recently saw of an M26 Pershing, in the last days of the war, opening up a King Tiger like a can of beans. I believe the unit involved was the 9th Armored Division. Had it not been for production trumping quality, I believe the Pershing would have tipped the balance in Western Europe and both the Panther and Tiger would have not been held in such high esteme. My take anyway
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Post by fred on Mar 23, 2012 9:42:29 GMT -6
Fred: Tigers were in Tunisia, but only a very few. In Europe, to a GI every German tank was a King Tiger, but there were only a few battalions of them. Don't think they were at Kursk either. Queenie, No Kings at Kursk. Panther was the MBT there, but half of them broke down because the Military Genius had them rushed from production too quickly. That, and strategic considerations, were why Manstein was adamant about delaying that fiasco. The Panther scared the britches off the Russians and some considered it the finest battle tank in the world until the M-60 hit the streets. It was the M-1A1 of its day. The Tiger was rather a dog, though if they could have sped the King along a little more quickly.... The Krauts, however, always seemed to have a real problem with mud. That's why their truck tires are so large nowadays. Still preparing.... Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by benteen on Mar 23, 2012 9:45:27 GMT -6
If you haven't already, recommend Speer's "Inside the Third Reich." DarkCloud, Good recommendation. I read it years ago, so a lot of it is hazy in my memory, but I know at the time I read it, I thought it was excellent.I believe Speer was Hitlers armament minister and he had a fondness for him. They discussed plans for immense buildings in the new Third Reich, (I think Speer was an architect by trade) I don't remember about the tanks but he was able to produce ball bearings in cave like structures. Very intelligent man, the book is a good read. Be Well Dan
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Post by fred on Mar 23, 2012 9:49:41 GMT -6
If you haven't already, recommend Speer's "Inside the Third Reich." Read it... though I may have lost that one too... everything is packed right now. And I agree; absolute must read. Or a shot in the butt. Ignorant about certain things... probably like us all. I still believe most of them played ostrich, however. Despite my utter fascination with the German military-- WWs I and II-- I find little excuse for the public's feigned ignorance of certain things; I cannot cut any slack there. Too much hate to cover up; sort of like denying the existence of the KKK. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 23, 2012 9:54:02 GMT -6
Yes Chuck, the 90mm M3 L/53 was a good tank killer, they used it on the M36 Jackson too, it was just as good as our 17 Pdr, a German officer once said ‘’a Tiger could defeat five of your Sherman's, but you always had six’’.
It certainly would have been interesting had the Pershing and Comet become available prior to Overlord, the M24 Chaffee was an improvement of the M5 Stuart.
The German Pz Mk IV was equal to the Sherman, but the Panther and the Tiger family were under powered, but had excellent fire power, I don’t have the data on me now, it’s on a disc some place, but consider the amount of Sherman's and T-34s produced, makes the German AFV output look very small.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 23, 2012 9:56:41 GMT -6
Fred: I am really out of my element on the Russian Front, other than the very superficial. There were teething problems with the Panther, but as you say it was a fine tank.
One of the things that I always faulted the German on was not realizing that the main battle tank was a war winner, both an offensive and defensive weapon. They spent all to much effort on ancillary vehicles like the Stug, the Elephant, and others as anti-armor and assult guns when everything they had from the Mark IV forward could have done the job as well or better.
Ian: I know for sure that the Duster was in Korea. The others I will have to check the basement library to verify.
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