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Post by Moltke on Jan 27, 2012 15:47:10 GMT -6
I've looked for threads that covered my questions before but didn't see anything so decided to throw this into the Battle Basics. I just finished reading through the two volumes of Hardorff's Custer Battle Casualities and loved every word. I've always been frustrated with the myriad of books that cover every aspect of the battle or the park but I can never find out extensive information concerning the direct aftermath of the battle and bodies, nor proper coverage of the burials and subsequent re-burials. These two volumes have been out of reach for some time due to cost but I finally managed an inter-library loan and got them. Anyway, onto some of my questions i was hoping lbha boards could help with.
First, I was wondering about some of the listed battle relics that were located and returned to families after the battle. I wondered if some were in any musuems today or if they remained with families and especially wondered if any photographs of them existed anywhere online. For instance ...
... Several times (pg 28, of Vol 1 and pg 27 , 29 of Vol II) we have accounts of hair locks being taken from the bodies. Dr Porter is said to have taken locks from the 'officers' to be given to the families. Likewise a Captain Nowlan is said to have secured locks for specifically the Custer families. In Vol I there is an account of a Jim SEvers taking a lock from specific GAC. I've seen discussion on the validity of various relics but for those that have credence are there any examples that can be seen? Online or in person?
In Vol. I an account from John Ryan states a soldier even removing a bullet from GAC. This likely isn't true, but has anything of the kind been claimed before the public before?
Likewise below is listed various relics of those who breathed their last in Montana.
Tin cups from enlisted men were found months after the battle by a Hermaon Bischoff. (V1pg63)
Cartridges from around Calhouns body as well as his watch were supposedly return to his wife. (V2pg13)
A miniature pistol from Cooke was recovered in Canada. (V2pg16)
Buckskin believed to be off Tom Custer body was found in Nov 76. (Account from a James Hutchins, V2pg46)
Lt Sturgis had his Bloody shirt, Buttons, and Spurs id'd as his recovered.
Lt. Porter similarly had a bloody shirt found, as well as a knife belonging to him recovered. (V2pg44)
1st Lt. William Reily's ring was found later. (V2pg44)
The soldier soldier Keogh saw his former Shoe, Watch, Gloves and the picture he carried of a Ms McDougall with blood spot recovered. (V2pg37)
Were any of these items eventually sold or given to museums or put on display afterwards by the families or whoever had them? Dr. Lord's bag is on display ... I was just wondering about these other things.
It's mentioned that the Canadians view various Indians displaying their battle trophies when Cooke's pistol was recovered too. I've read some things on a finger necklace being recovered that supposedly had trooper trigger fingers also. Just wanted to put an image with some of the relics and wondered if any where to be found or if most were still locked away in attics of family members who've forgotten.
In a change of pace I wanted to throw out some other basic questions. First, in Volume I, Hardorff mentions and account from July 1877 in which a reporter claims that Custer's Horse is still there and recognizable. He's detailing the appalling condition that the army has left in their terrible abandonment of the soldiers final resting place. My first question is how would Custer's horse still be ID'd, and second if that was the case it strikes me as surprising that someone souvinour hunter wouldn't have snatched up the skull or something of Custer's last horse.
My next question concerns Kellog. Some people write that Kellog might have been part of a group that attempted to break out but I don't see how the location of his body points to that. Is there any factors on where he was found that warrent special mention?
Another question concerns a common thing asked but I was just wanting a consensus of what this forum thought. There are multiple Indiana accounts of break out attempts and at least a couple individuals that have so many different eye witnesses that they strike me as likely. A couple runners on foot seem to almost have gotten away before being ridden down or committed suicide, and then there is the horsemen with the fast horse who seems to have made it out only to shoot himself. My question is who most think was the soldier or body that came the closest to making it out alive and which soldier came the closest of reaching Reno.
Hope this doesn't come off as some kind of newbie spam ... just have a lot of questions and brain storming floating around after reading the CBC volumes. Very good reading.
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Post by fred on Jan 27, 2012 22:37:26 GMT -6
In Vol I there is an account of a Jim SEvers taking a lock from specific GAC. I've seen discussion on the validity of various relics but for those that have credence are there any examples that can be seen? Online or in person? Lonewulf, Yours is a difficult, but interesting search. I can answer some of your questions off the top of my head... others would take much more time. In 1876, the cutting and saving of locks of hair was a very common practice. I know of one such example-- though I do not know where he obtained it-- of George Custer's hair owned by a friend named Don Horn in New Jersey. In all likelihood, this is nonsense. Custer was shot twice, and the chest wound had an exit point, so that slug is missing. The second wound was in the head and I doubt very seriously if some private soldier would have been allowed to go digging around in the general's brain. I do not know about Bischoof, but you can see canteen cups in the battlefield's museum. Do not know about this, though there are plenty of cartridge cases to be found in the museum. Do not know where any of this is, if it even exists any more. Reily's ring was rather nice. It was taken off a Cheyenne who surrendered at Fort Robinson about two years after the battle, and as odd as it may seem, returned to Reily's mother who had written a poignant letter to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs before anyone knew the ring would be found. If I am not mistaken the ring is now in the Smithsonian. If you have Glen Swanson's book, G. A. Custer, His Life and Times, there is a picture of the ring in there. It is a $100 book, by the way. The stories of Custer's horse are legion. LT Edgerly told Walter Camp that Vic was killed. Indians claim, no. Furthermore, probably the most frequently told story of Indians capturing Custer's horse involves the son of the Santee Sioux Inkpaduta, Gray Earth Track, as being the most likely warrior to have captured Vic. Take your pick. The chances of Mark Kellogg being a breakout candidate are slim to none. There is some confusion about where the man was found and his marker indicates the east side of Battle Ridge, up near Last Stand Hill. That is incorrect. Kellogg was killed between Ford D and Cemetery Ridge, down in the flats, probably as Custer was heading toward Cemetery from locating Ford D. The only individual-- not in a group-- who was reported to have attempted a break-away was the Company I blacksmith, Henry Allen Bailey. Bailey reached the slope of the ridge to the east of Battle Ridge before being cut down, possibly by Crazy Horse himself, though that seems to me to be highly improbable. He is represented by Marker 174. Cheyenne warriors-- prominent in that sector of the fighting-- spotted him making a break for it and shot him down. One account claims he was mounted, but this seems unlikely. Apparently, he was cut off by two Cheyenne who shot him, scalped him, and then hung his scalp on some sagebrush. There is another account of an attempted breakout by four mounted troopers, two of them identified as possibly being 1SG James Butler (L Company) and CPL John Foley of "C." It is known these two got the farthest from the field and because of their units, it is possible they rode together in an attempt at escape. Some believe Foley was the one who shot himself and this is supported by Gall's account several years after the fighting. Butler raised all sorts of hell before Indians got behind him and killed him. Some several years ago I thought I was able to identify a third of these so-called four, but I cannot for the life of me remember who it was. Not at all. Hope this is of some help. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by benteen on Jan 28, 2012 10:11:11 GMT -6
Just bouncing around the computer and came up with this tid-bit. There is one surviving child of a soldier who fought at LBH. She is Minnie Grace Mechling Carey (92). She is the daughter of Henry WB Mechling who was awarded the MOH. She donated the medal and a button (allegedly ) from Custer's coat to the LBH Battlefield Museum
There is also an exhibit at the Allison-Antrim Museum Greencastle PA with Custer and the LBH memorabilia. A private collector with numerous firearms, one found under a trooper, and artifacts which he is going to display
Sat 2/4 1100-1400 hrs
Sun 2/5 1300-1600 hrs
Be Well Dan
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Post by stevewilk on Jan 28, 2012 11:14:43 GMT -6
Just bouncing around the computer and came up with this tid-bit. There is one surviving child of a soldier who fought at LBH. She is Minnie Grace Mechling Carey (92). She is the daughter of Henry WB Mechling who was awarded the MOH. She donated the medal and a button (allegedly ) from Custer's coat to the LBH Battlefield Museum There is also an exhibit at the Allison-Antrim Museum Greencastle PA with Custer and the LBH memorabilia. A private collector with numerous firearms, one found under a trooper, and artifacts which he is going to display Sat 2/4 1100-1400 hrs Sun 2/5 1300-1600 hrs Be Well Dan Dan, your info is quite dated with regard to Minnie Mechling. She passed away July 2006 at the age of 99. She was an honored guest at the 125th anniversary in 2001; I was in attendance and it was quite a thrill to see a daughter of the Seventh still living at such a late date.
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Post by benteen on Jan 28, 2012 12:43:09 GMT -6
Stevewilk,
Yes thats me my friend, the epitome of current event. I read it while bouncing around on the computer and assumed it was up to date not 6 years old. Thank you for correcting that. I wouldn't want to give people bad information.I think it is safe to believe that the exhibition is 6 years ago as well. Congrats on seeing her before she died, I'm sure any of us would be thrilled to have been there. Again thanks for the correction
Be Well Dan
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Post by Moltke on Feb 1, 2012 13:53:29 GMT -6
via Fred ...
"In 1876, the cutting and saving of locks of hair was a very common practice. I know of one such example-- though I do not know where he obtained it-- of George Custer's hair owned by a friend named Don Horn in New Jersey."
The book mention one strand of his hair recently going for over $24K in an auction. I wonder how many are out there.
"Do not know about this, though there are plenty of cartridge cases to be found in the museum."
I remember seeing many of the cartridges when I was there many years ago, but are any listed as having been found in the vacenity of any specific soldiers of the 7th? The Calhoun relics would attach a special face to the history.
"Do not know where any of this is, if it even exists any more."
Yeah, some might not have ever existed, but some must still be around. It kills me to think that this stuff is in the family attic or basement of some guy or gal who didn't care to listen to their grand parents stories of the relics because they were and are too busy watching mtv ... okay so my jade view of society pops out there a bit ... but it is sad to hear that most of those items are probably lost to history.
"Reily's ring was rather nice. It was taken off a Cheyenne who surrendered at Fort Robinson about two years after the battle, and as odd as it may seem, returned to Reily's mother who had written a poignant letter to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs before anyone knew the ring would be found. If I am not mistaken the ring is now in the Smithsonian. If you have Glen Swanson's book, G. A. Custer, His Life and Times, there is a picture of the ring in there. It is a $100 book, by the way."
Thank you, will have to track down that book through the university.
"The chances of Mark Kellogg being a breakout candidate are slim to none. There is some confusion about where the man was found and his marker indicates the east side of Battle Ridge, up near Last Stand Hill. That is incorrect. Kellogg was killed between Ford D and Cemetery Ridge, down in the flats, probably as Custer was heading toward Cemetery from locating Ford D. "
Would that place him as an early KIA then? Or one of the earlier ones at least? He was on a mule correct?
"The only individual-- not in a group-- who was reported to have attempted a break-away was the Company I blacksmith, Henry Allen Bailey. Bailey reached the slope of the ridge to the east of Battle Ridge before being cut down, ... "
Hmmm, where can one read about the speculation regarding Bailey?
"There is another account of an attempted breakout by four mounted troopers, two of them identified as possibly being 1SG James Butler (L Company) and CPL John Foley of "C." It is known these two got the farthest from the field and because of their units, it is possible they rode together in an attempt at escape. Some believe Foley was the one who shot himself and this is supported by Gall's account several years after the fighting. Butler raised all sorts of hell before Indians got behind him and killed him. Some several years ago I thought I was able to identify a third of these so-called four, but I cannot for the life of me remember who it was."
Hmmm ... are there any sources you can link that speak of Foley and Butler? I believe I read on account that several cartridges shells were found around Butler .. could be wrong though. I'm trying to picture their potential break out route and where the bodies were found. How far from other bodies were they? What was their distance from Reno , or I suppose Wier point even? What do you think about some people naming Harrington as an almost escapee due to warrior horse recognition?
Thanks a lot Fred, great information. Have a few here I'll trow at you as well if you have the time.
First, I see a lot of warrior tales of the 'grey horse troop' that seem to put that company in a lot of different locations around the battlefield. While it's possible that the were in those locations ... what is the common consensus about where the grey house troopers fought and fell.
Is it believed that the troops on Calhoun hill were overwhelmed first and thus collapsing Keogh's group or the other way around? The only indication was that the trail of bodies from the Keogh's companies led to Custer hill. It seems that Calhoun's group were totally rushed over as they died all still in basically skirmish lines. This seems to me to indicate that they were not aware of Keogh falling or likely were the first blow of a warrior wave. Hope that makes some sense.
Along those lines, where do you believe was the best opportunity for a soldier our mounted group to make an escape attempt?
Again seeking your opinion, do you have the view that Keogh made a stand specifically at that point due to orders or battle conditions or did Company I make a stand around a wounded and stranded officer based on the knee wound suffered by Keogh while likely mounted still.
Also, I can't seem to find out who the messenger is whom Reno sent to Custer ... and thus doomed to death.
Thanks again , and no worries ... I won't post another page of questions for you. Sorry to through out so much at once.
~L
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Post by Moltke on Feb 1, 2012 13:55:27 GMT -6
Dan, your info is quite dated with regard to Minnie Mechling. She passed away July 2006 at the age of 99. She was an honored guest at the 125th anniversary in 2001; I was in attendance and it was quite a thrill to see a daughter of the Seventh still living at such a late date.
Was just reading about Minnie the other day in probably that same dated new story that Dan found. Pretty amazing that she was still around then and I would have loved to meet and see her in 01. Along similar lines of aged connection to historical figures .. did you all see that story on the two still living grandchildren of president John Tyler? Pretty extraordinary.
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Post by benteen on Feb 1, 2012 14:40:30 GMT -6
Was just reading about Minnie the other day in probably that same dated new story that Dan found. lonewulf 44.... Thanks for bailing me out on that one. I owe you one my friend. Be Well Dan
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Post by fred on Feb 2, 2012 16:37:05 GMT -6
I remember seeing many of the cartridges when I was there many years ago, but are any listed as having been found in the vicinity of any specific soldiers of the 7th? The Calhoun relics would attach a special face to the history. Not that I am aware of… not specifically linked to any bodies. Remember, no one even thought about that at the time. In all likelihood—and based on everything I have been able to piece together chronologically—it would have made Kellogg the third man killed from Custer’s column. The first was a Private William A. Brown of F Company whose horse bolted across the river at Ford B. There is some dispute as to who this person may have been, but again, everything I have been able to assemble points to William Brown. The second man killed was Trumpeter Henry Dose, a G Company man assigned as a Custer orderly. As usual, there is dispute here, as well, much of it generated by some erroneous Walter Camp work, then propagated by Richard Hardorff, though Hardorff was probably just following a bad trail to its inexorable end. Again, in all likelihood, Dose was killed in the Deep Coulee environs as Custer moved toward Calhoun Hill from the Ford B area. There is a lot of good stuff about Bailey, some of it in the Scott and Fox books about archaeology. Also, accounts by Wooden Leg and Two Moons. You will also find an account in Bruce Liddic’s book, Vanishing Victory, Dale Schoenberger’s End of Custer, and Hardorff’s The Custer Battle Casualties, II. Everyone speaks of Foley and Butler, but no one speaks of them regarding four men trying to escape. The story first popped in one of the Indian accounts, and I first heard of it in Richard Fox’ book, Archaeology, History, and the Custer Battle, though I have discussed this with Fox and he didn’t even recall writing it. No, you are not wrong. Even the Indians said they had a very tough time killing him. To my way of thinking, the two men probably made a break for it from the southern part of the Keogh Sector, and probably out of the grouping of men that surrounded Keogh. To me, that makes the most sense. In my visual of how the battle flowed—formed by eye-witness accounts of where bodies from the various companies were found, as well as Indian accounts of how the fighting developed—if these two men were indeed part of a four-man contingent that tried to break away, then they most likely met up after the rout of “C” and as “L” was being forced off Calhoun Hill. A group had a better chance to get as far as they did than any single rider, and two of them could have been cut down before the other two got as far as they did. If you have any maps of the battlegrounds, Foley probably got the farthest away, but both were killed on the complex of ridges that form what we call today Luce Ridge and Nye – Cartwright Ridge, though Butler’s body was closer to the river than the tops of both those high points. In any case, the ridges are located between Medicine Tail Coulee and Deep Coulee. It is nonsense. I have a fairly good idea of where Harrington was killed and he was not the one they talk about. That was probably Foley and I believe Gall’s accounts of the fighting pretty much point to Foley as the man. E Company—the Gray Horse Troop—rode with and died with George Custer. If we can believe the tales or accounts of the various burial parties, then I can account for the final locations of 35 of the 38 men in that company. The other three would be closer to the “supposition” range of guesses—as opposed to the “educated” range of guesses—and those three would have perished along the South Skirmish Line. The “educated” guess places 28 in Deep Ravine. There is truth in some of that, but for it to be “completely” true, you need to place it within its proper context. In my opinion, the serious fighting began with C Company charging into Calhoun Coulee; being routed from there, seeking high ground, and finding it at Finley – Finckle Ridge; but from there being forced up onto and through L Company, whose skirmish lines could not hold the onslaught. There may be some 30 to 40 separate Indian accounts alluding to just such a flow that would have then wound up in the Keogh Sector. The fact Company I was of little or no assistance can be attributed to the fact I Company was having issues of its own. I have my own theories of this, but am not at liberty to say what they are—or why they are—at this time. If what I have been able to discover were correct, it would explain exactly why I Company’s bodies were distributed like they are. It is a fascinating situation. Northeast, off Last Stand Hill… but early on, not later… obviously. Neither. I see now, however, you included, “battle conditions,” so yes, battle conditions. In a nutshell, Keogh found himself trapped before he could do something about it.Reno sent two messengers, privates McIlhargey and Mitchell, both from Company I and both of whom were assigned to Reno that day, one as a striker, the other a cook. The men stayed with Custer—or Keogh (less likely)—and were both found on Last Stand Hill. There is no apology needed. You are free to ask as many questions as you like, whenever you like. It is my pleasure and I am delighted in your interest. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by zekesgirl on Feb 2, 2012 21:29:47 GMT -6
I think one reason the Indians talk about the grey horse troop so much, is simply because they (E) were distinctive and stood out from the generic 'brown' horses.
Just my opinion, of course.
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Post by El Crab on Feb 3, 2012 2:55:23 GMT -6
If you have Glen Swanson's book, G. A. Custer, His Life and Times, there is a picture of the ring in there. It is a $100 book, by the way. You truly are the best, Fred. You signed your book for me in the absolute correct way (I wish all of the inscribed books I find in my treasure hunting were inscribed on the first page and simply signed on the title page). But now you've done it again. I have this sweet little system going for books. I buy a crate of books for 5.00 per at one place, remove what I want then take them to a used bookstore and get credit for what they want. I then sell the rest off at another used store for cash, usually right around 5 bucks. I say you've done it again because you mentioned a book that I really want. And today the owner talked to me about being unable to find a book in their store that is in their inventory, and probably will have to order it online for the customer. I have a decent amount of credit built up (I try to build it up and use it on books to sell, but...) and I can have them order any book from Amazon and they'll just use my credit. Long story short, you reminded me of that title, which somehow just merged with the recollection of today's lost book conversation. And because of this, tomorrow I will go to the bookstore and kindly ask them to order a copy of that book. Thanks!
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Post by El Crab on Feb 3, 2012 3:31:01 GMT -6
The only individual-- not in a group-- who was reported to have attempted a break-away was the Company I blacksmith, Henry Allen Bailey. Bailey reached the slope of the ridge to the east of Battle Ridge before being cut down, possibly by Crazy Horse himself, though that seems to me to be highly improbable. He is represented by Marker 174. Cheyenne warriors-- prominent in that sector of the fighting-- spotted him making a break for it and shot him down. One account claims he was mounted, but this seems unlikely. Apparently, he was cut off by two Cheyenne who shot him, scalped him, and then hung his scalp on some sagebrush. Interesting stuff, Fred. Bailey was said to have carried a breech-loading Dexter shotgun, rather than a Springfield carbine. How does that jive with the story associated with Marker 174? Big Beaver pointed that marker out as where the escaping soldier was chased and killed, and he said he recovered the trooper's gun. The excavation of the area around that marker yielded .45/55 casings, rather than shotgun casings. BTW, the Big Beaver info in Hardorff's Cheyenne Memories says "Then he says a soldier got up and mounted his horse... and rode as fast as he could towards the east." (pg. 149). While it's not gospel, it would appear that the soldier was mounted when trying to escape. The interview says Big Beaver had never owned a gun to that point, that the firearm he got from this soldier was his first. It does not specify whether he got a carbine or revolver (but I want to say carbine, and I don't know why). So if it was Bailey that was killed at Marker 174, what of his supposed Dexter shotgun? Would he have carried a carbine as well? I'd lean towards a no, given the added weight. I was hoping your book would mention Bailey's choice in firearms. While typing this up, I briefly considered the idea that he mounted someone else's horse, but most of the soldiers carried their carbines on their person, yes? And even if the carbine was in a scabbard on this borrowed horse, Bailey wouldn't have had cartridges for it on his person. I'm very curious to hear your thoughts on Bailey and his shotgun. And was Marker 174 where Limpy got the cartridge belt? buffalopost.net/wp-content/uploads/limpy.jpg
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Post by Moltke on Feb 3, 2012 15:53:54 GMT -6
Thanks again Fred, and you convinced me to add a few more questions. If you think some of these are better served as being a new topic just let me know. I'm too afraid that they've all likely been covered to death by some of the board'vets to post anything as of yet. " In all likelihood—and based on everything I have been able to piece together chronologically—it would have made Kellogg the third man killed from Custer’s column. ... The second man killed was Trumpeter Henry Dose, a G Company man assigned as a Custer orderly ... " I've seen those two listed before. I just finished reading the ending of the I go with Custer - Banard and I've already forgotten where it placed Kellogg and his mule but it seemed like when last reported by Martin he was near the head of the column. Is that where you would also place the Trumpeter/orderly as well? The reason I bring that up is that if we have two early KIA's who might be near the head of the column, does that offer any credence or likely hood to some people thoughts that Custer was at least 'hit' early on in the movements? (IE the chest wound?) Again I'm not sure where I read it, or if it was even from a "documented" account but someone speculated that the head wound to Custer might have been a finishing shot from his brother or other 7th man as the unit distigrated around his body while wounded. The thought process being that a head shot would obviously put him dead to rights on the ground thereby negating the chance of a chest wound and in reverse speculating that if the chest wound happened first it would be unlikely that he would be standing to receive the head shot afterwards. "To my way of thinking, the two men probably made a break for it from the southern part of the Keogh Sector, and probably out of the grouping of men that surrounded Keogh. To me, that makes the most sense. " Could you explain why you think the southern part makes the most sense? Also, could Finckle and Finley factor into this grouping in your opinion? " If you have any maps of the battlegrounds, Foley probably got the farthest away, but both were killed on the complex of ridges that form what we call today Luce Ridge and Nye – Cartwright Ridge, though Butler’s body was closer to the river than the tops of both those high points. In any case, the ridges are located between Medicine Tail Coulee and Deep Coulee." Hmmmm, do you by chance have a copy of Hardorff's Vol. II near? The map on page 94 gives some perspective to their locations. Would you agree with their placement? If Foley had gotten over that ridge, I wonder if Foley had gotten into the Medicine Tail Coulee proper if that would have helped or doomed him yet again? If you have that map, by chance do you know any information concerning his point #17 that just is listed as where 4 human skeletons were found. I don't see that brought up again anywhere as to clues of who they were or when they were found. The group would appear to be half a mile away from where Foley was found to the NE in a leveled section. My first thought jumped to the some of the rumored escapee groups but I'm not familiar with some of the placements of the accounts. " 28 in Deep Ravine." Why such a concentration here? I've read a few shortened guesses, but what's your take? "If what I have been able to discover were correct, it would explain exactly why I Company’s bodies were distributed like they are. It is a fascinating situation." Look forward to hearing it. Neither. I see now, however, you included, “battle conditions,” so yes, battle conditions. In a nutshell, Keogh found himself trapped before he could do something about it.Are there any indications that mutilations (besides scalping) or I should say the degree of them has any connection to whether the soldier was killed when found or just wounded or incapacitated? Reno sent two messengers, privates McIlhargey and Mitchell, both from Company I and both of whom were assigned to Reno that day, one as a striker, the other a cook. The men stayed with Custer—or Keogh (less likely)—and were both found on Last Stand Hill. The hand of fate that day ... 2 sent back to live, 2 sent forward to die. 1 rides up to join death (Boston) Quick thoughts. Curley? No one believes all his tale(s), but many believe some of it. What say you? What was the Indian thought process behind the Mitch B, blood kettle mutilation? Why so sporadic is the bodies from the companies ... specifically C company? In your opinion of course. Thanks again, very very good information. Always had an interest in the battle since first visiting as a child years ago but my history interest has been shifting in the past few years from big topics like the ACW and WW2 to specifically the military ventures of late Victorian age such as LBH and the Zulu Wars for example.
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Post by fred on Feb 3, 2012 20:31:54 GMT -6
I've seen those two listed before. I just finished reading the ending of the I go with Custer - Banard and I've already forgotten where it placed Kellogg and his mule but it seemed like when last reported by Martin he was near the head of the column. Is that where you would also place the Trumpeter/orderly as well? Yes. The circumstances involved in the movement of the command, however, would have been different from one ford to the other. Based on some of the Indian accounts, Custer remained behind the Medicine Tail ford, possibly on a bluff—which would make sense if he was there only to see what was going on in the valley and to see the extent of the village. There is also an obscure account of a few more Indians at Ford B than generally thought, and possibly on the bluffs east of the river and slightly downstream from the ford. If that were the case, it could explain Dose’s death in that area. Both archaeology and Indian accounts point to a cavalry withdrawal of little speed up the flats of Deep Coulee, toward the top of Finley – Finckle Ridge. It is quite possible that Kellogg—mounted on a slower-going mule—fell behind in the withdrawal from Ford D, a withdrawal that was reputed to be in greater haste than that from Ford B. Not in my mind. There are many—including DC on these boards—who believe Custer was wounded at Ford B. There are, however, entirely too many reasons why that cannot be the case… at least from the standpoint of someone who has spent some time in the military. An incapacitating wound that early in the fighting would have changed an awful lot of what occurred subsequently. Because that was where help was. When you say “Finckle and Finley,” do you mean the mean or the ridge? By the time Butler and Foley made any attempt at escape, both Finley and Finckle were dead. As for the “ridge,” the action had already moved over and past that area when any possible breakout was attempted. My copy has that map on page 14. Locations 16 (Butler) and 15 (Foley) are accurate. The bodies found at 17 would have to be Indians—and we know Indians from the Wolf Tooth band were in that locale. The fact they were not taken from the field— if they were in fact from this battle—could indicate they were lone warriors, arriving at the scene without their families. They could, therefore, have been easily overlooked. Location 17 would not have been soldiers—they were all accounted for, at least within a count of one person. Had Foley been able to get into MTC, I doubt he would have gotten much farther. That is sheer speculation on my part, but there were enough Indians even in that location to prevent escape. A breakout attempt is the only plausible solution, especially since virtually all the bodies were identified as belonging to E Company. Remember, only F Company troops and some stragglers from “C,” “I,” and “L” were identified on Last Stand Hill (LT Smith being the lone E Company exception). Do not know, but I suspect most of the mutilations were postmortem. According to anthropologists and medical personnel who examined bones discovered in the 1984 and 1985 excavations, most of those found were determined to have suffered blunt-force trauma perimortem. In all likelihood, I would suspect this would indicate death before mutilation. Plus—for what it is worth—the male Indians interviewed all said—to a man, if I am not mistaken—the squaws carried out the mutilations. This would also include the killing of any wounded. I believe virtually nothing Curley said. While any number of respectable and well thought-of writers and historians pay great heed to Curley’s wild tales, there is entirely too much evidence—from various accounts—that tell me he never even made it to Weir Point. Some of these writers who profess to know so much base their entire theory of the battle on what Curley said. I reject them all. Do not know anything about this. Well, in my opinion of course, C Company’s actions started the whole battle. It is my opinion C Company was sent into Calhoun Coulee (from Battle Ridge) to clean out infiltrating and threatening Indians. The troops dismounted and within moments were counterattacked furiously and driven up to Finley – Finckle Ridge. The Indian onslaught continued, driving the remnants of “C” up to and through Calhoun Hill, taking L Company men with them, all being pushed into the Keogh Sector—and quickly (the lack of bodies found on Calhoun Hill bear that out). And from there no more than 10 men—possibly a handful more, but unknown by name—made it to Custer/Last Stand Hill. So essentially, you have C Company men being the only ones to cover almost the entire arena of the battlefield: Calhoun Coulee, Finley – Finckle Ridge, the Keogh Sector/Battle Ridge, Last Stand Hill, and possibly even the Battle Ridge extension. And by the way, there are numerous and multiple Indian accounts supporting virtually all of this, so it is not just some cockamamie theory I have developed. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Feb 3, 2012 20:36:33 GMT -6
You signed your book for me in the absolute correct way (I wish all of the inscribed books I find in my treasure hunting were inscribed on the first page and simply signed on the title page). You are way too kind, Scott, but I certainly thank you for it. Best wishes, Fred.
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