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Post by fred on Feb 3, 2012 20:48:27 GMT -6
Bailey was said to have carried a breech-loading Dexter shotgun, rather than a Springfield carbine.... I'm very curious to hear your thoughts on Bailey and his shotgun. I have not heard of Bailey having carried a shotgun, but shotgun pellets have been discovered amongst other period firearm relics, so it is believed at least one shotgun was used in the fighting. As for Bailey trying to escape while mounted, no horse bones were found in the vicinity: Near Marker 174—Eastern fence boundary in the Keogh Sector. • One boot nail. • Three .45/55 carbine cartridge cases, all fired from the same weapon. • One Colt cartridge case. • One .50/70 bullet. That seems to pretty much preclude any shotgun, at least since no casings were found. I don't know much about that sort of weaponry, but I would suspect shotgun shells were paper with a metal primer cap. If we knew whether or not Crazy Horse carried a .50-cal rifle, we could come closer to determining if he actually killed Bailey. Good luck with that! Based on the above, I suspect if Bailey carried a shotgun, he lost it before trying to make his break. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by El Crab on Feb 4, 2012 0:33:44 GMT -6
What was the Indian thought process behind the Mitch B, blood kettle mutilation? Do you mean the story about a kettle of blood found next to Isaiah Dorman's corpse? Thanks again, very very good information. Always had an interest in the battle since first visiting as a child years ago but my history interest has been shifting in the past few years from big topics like the ACW and WW2 to specifically the military ventures of late Victorian age such as LBH and the Zulu Wars for example. Ahh, I have the same problem. I stick mostly with the West, but I get going on tangents and start looking into all kinds of stuff. Right now, I'm reading Notes on Blood Meridian, which is incredibly insightful and interesting. An example of that tangent thing, I watched No Country For Old Men years ago. Liked it so much that I read the book. Loved that. Then I needed to read another Cormac McCarthy book. So I read Blood Meridian, since it was about scalphunters. LOVED IT. In fact, it's my favourite book. Anyway, read up on it, saw a few lectures about it online, and it's compared to Moby Dick. So I read up on Moby Dick a little, saw there was a book on the true story that inspired Melville. Read that and loved it. So now I've been picking up books on America's early years on the sea and various maritime/exploration disasters of the 18th century. As for the Zulu War, you got a friend in me. I'm no expert, but I find it to be fascinating. I have a few books to read on the subject and if you ever wanna chat it up, feel free to msg me and I'll send you my email addy. Scott
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Post by El Crab on Feb 4, 2012 0:46:39 GMT -6
Bailey was said to have carried a breech-loading Dexter shotgun, rather than a Springfield carbine.... I'm very curious to hear your thoughts on Bailey and his shotgun. I have not heard of Bailey having carried a shotgun, but shotgun pellets have been discovered amongst other period firearm relics, so it is believed at least one shotgun was used in the fighting. As for Bailey trying to escape while mounted, no horse bones were found in the vicinity: Near Marker 174—Eastern fence boundary in the Keogh Sector. • One boot nail. • Three .45/55 carbine cartridge cases, all fired from the same weapon. • One Colt cartridge case. • One .50/70 bullet. That seems to pretty much preclude any shotgun, at least since no casings were found. I don't know much about that sort of weaponry, but I would suspect shotgun shells were paper with a metal primer cap. If we knew whether or not Crazy Horse carried a .50-cal rifle, we could come closer to determining if he actually killed Bailey. Good luck with that! Based on the above, I suspect if Bailey carried a shotgun, he lost it before trying to make his break. Best wishes, Fred. Interesting stuff about the pellets. Any idea where they were found? I can't imagine there's a great amount of range on a shotgun. Sorry, Dexter Smith was the manufacturer of the supposed shotgun. Forgot the Smith portion of the name. milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Sporting%20Rifles/Gallery/Dexter%20Smith%20Rolling%20Block%2012%20Gauge%20Shotgun.jpgThere's a pic of one. Dexter Smith was the son of THE Smith that teamed up with Wesson. So maybe the soldier at 174 rode to that point, either dismounted or was unhorsed in some way, and fought to the end from there? Or Big Beaver is mistaken, or the interviewer or translator was mistaken in what Big Beaver said about this trooper and his method of escape. If Bailey did carry a shotgun, might he have used solid slugs instead of rounds packed with pellets? BTW, Evan S. Connell mentions it in SOTMS, and a few websites talk about it. As with all of SOTMS, I don't know what the source was. Might be Bailey himself, as there was a letter also mentioned about Sitting Bull and the comeuppance Bailey and his comrades in the Seventh were going to bring him. Perhaps he mentioned in a letter his contrarian choice in firearms.
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Post by fred on Feb 4, 2012 7:38:43 GMT -6
By the way, I have four separate accounts of the Bailey incident. Only one refers to a man on horseback. I suspect-- since the accounts all came from many years later-- Big Beaver got Bailey, on horseback, confused with another incident.
I would also think most troops in this area would have been killed while they were unmounted, horses having been chased off. The sorrels found on Last Stand Hill were probably from a couple of C Company men who were able to make it that far and anyone believing those men reached LSH on foot are probably whistling in their teacups.
As for shotgun pellets, I found two indications, both along the SSL which also makes most sense.
If Bailey did, in fact, have a shotgun and wound up losing it before he tried to get away, its use on the SSL in the closing stages of the fight would make the most sense. Here is where the pellets were found:
Markers 33 and 34 (paired)—On the trail near the middle of the South Skirmish Line. This is believed to be the Mitch Boyer site. Lead shot was found there.
Also, markers 52 and 53 (paired)—Northern end of the South Skirmish Line, about 492 feet from the visitors center. Lead shot was found there, as well.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by El Crab on Feb 4, 2012 11:42:30 GMT -6
So what links Bailey to the marker at 174? Approximate height and age of the found skeletal remains?
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jag
Full Member
Caption: IRAQI PHOTO'S -- (arrow to gun port) LOOK HERE -- SMILE -- WAIT FOR -- FLASH
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Post by jag on Feb 4, 2012 12:59:25 GMT -6
So what links Bailey to the marker at 174? Approximate height and age of the found skeletal remains? Not unless Bailey's name was written all over those pellets. Just as likely, some Indian doing some hunting, some other time as it is anything else. Just because something was found there didn't connect the dots pellet by pellet. How was it that markland put it about those facts?
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Post by El Crab on Feb 4, 2012 13:45:36 GMT -6
The little vignette about the trooper pulling his Colt while being shot is interesting, but I've always felt it was more likely him being shot with his own gun.
Was it common for a trooper to cock the hammer as they draw the pistol? Seems like a good way to occasionally blow a hole in your lower extremities. Besides, they usually wore the Colt butt forward, so I just don't think it is the most likely explanation.
I'd say it's more likely he was shot while on the ground and the bullet went through and through and impacted in the ground.
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Post by bc on Feb 4, 2012 13:59:21 GMT -6
I've done a lot of hunting and there is no way some pellets fired in the air are going to have very many collect in one spot. Unless the dead person buried there took a gutshot or something which would mean the NAs used it. I'd think a collection of pellets around a grave is indicative of a dropped and unfired shell or something. I'm not sure what they made shotgun shells out of then but part of it would probably be copper and no shell casings were apparently found.
bc
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Post by bc on Feb 4, 2012 14:12:54 GMT -6
Thanks again Fred, and you convinced me to add a few more questions. If you think some of these are better served as being a new topic just let me know. I'm too afraid that they've all likely been covered to death by some of the board'vets to post anything as of yet. " In all likelihood—and based on everything I have been able to piece together chronologically—it would have made Kellogg the third man killed from Custer’s column. ... The second man killed was Trumpeter Henry Dose, a G Company man assigned as a Custer orderly ... " I've seen those two listed before. I just finished reading the ending of the I go with Custer - Banard and I've already forgotten where it placed Kellogg and his mule but it seemed like when last reported by Martin he was near the head of the column. Is that where you would also place the Trumpeter/orderly as well? The reason I bring that up is that if we have two early KIA's who might be near the head of the column, does that offer any credence or likely hood to some people thoughts that Custer was at least 'hit' early on in the movements? (IE the chest wound?) Again I'm not sure where I read it, or if it was even from a "documented" account but someone speculated that the head wound to Custer might have been a finishing shot from his brother or other 7th man as the unit distigrated around his body while wounded. The thought process being that a head shot would obviously put him dead to rights on the ground thereby negating the chance of a chest wound and in reverse speculating that if the chest wound happened first it would be unlikely that he would be standing to receive the head shot afterwards. "To my way of thinking, the two men probably made a break for it from the southern part of the Keogh Sector, and probably out of the grouping of men that surrounded Keogh. To me, that makes the most sense. " Could you explain why you think the southern part makes the most sense? Also, could Finckle and Finley factor into this grouping in your opinion? " If you have any maps of the battlegrounds, Foley probably got the farthest away, but both were killed on the complex of ridges that form what we call today Luce Ridge and Nye – Cartwright Ridge, though Butler’s body was closer to the river than the tops of both those high points. In any case, the ridges are located between Medicine Tail Coulee and Deep Coulee." Hmmmm, do you by chance have a copy of Hardorff's Vol. II near? The map on page 94 gives some perspective to their locations. Would you agree with their placement? If Foley had gotten over that ridge, I wonder if Foley had gotten into the Medicine Tail Coulee proper if that would have helped or doomed him yet again? If you have that map, by chance do you know any information concerning his point #17 that just is listed as where 4 human skeletons were found. I don't see that brought up again anywhere as to clues of who they were or when they were found. The group would appear to be half a mile away from where Foley was found to the NE in a leveled section. My first thought jumped to the some of the rumored escapee groups but I'm not familiar with some of the placements of the accounts. " 28 in Deep Ravine." Why such a concentration here? I've read a few shortened guesses, but what's your take? "If what I have been able to discover were correct, it would explain exactly why I Company’s bodies were distributed like they are. It is a fascinating situation." Look forward to hearing it. Neither. I see now, however, you included, “battle conditions,” so yes, battle conditions. In a nutshell, Keogh found himself trapped before he could do something about it.Are there any indications that mutilations (besides scalping) or I should say the degree of them has any connection to whether the soldier was killed when found or just wounded or incapacitated? Reno sent two messengers, privates McIlhargey and Mitchell, both from Company I and both of whom were assigned to Reno that day, one as a striker, the other a cook. The men stayed with Custer—or Keogh (less likely)—and were both found on Last Stand Hill. The hand of fate that day ... 2 sent back to live, 2 sent forward to die. 1 rides up to join death (Boston) Quick thoughts. Curley? No one believes all his tale(s), but many believe some of it. What say you? What was the Indian thought process behind the Mitch B, blood kettle mutilation? Why so sporadic is the bodies from the companies ... specifically C company? In your opinion of course. Thanks again, very very good information. Always had an interest in the battle since first visiting as a child years ago but my history interest has been shifting in the past few years from big topics like the ACW and WW2 to specifically the military ventures of late Victorian age such as LBH and the Zulu Wars for example. What is this, Jeopardy? Everything here but the $64,000 question. I think Fred deserves $64,000 just for being gracious enough in answering all of these on this discussion forum. Any one of them probably deserves a separate discussion. Lonewulf, you mentioned something about Mitch Bouyer and a bloody kettle. That is the first I heard of it. What is the deal with that account? bc
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Post by bc on Feb 4, 2012 14:37:58 GMT -6
The little vignette about the trooper pulling his Colt while being shot is interesting, but I've always felt it was more likely him being shot with his own gun. Was it common for a trooper to cock the hammer as they draw the pistol? Seems like a good way to occasionally blow a hole in your lower extremities. Besides, they usually wore the Colt butt forward, so I just don't think it is the most likely explanation. I'd say it's more likely he was shot while on the ground and the bullet went through and through and impacted in the ground. Scott, the 1873 Colt SAA (single action army) (also called the Model P Peacemaker and Colt 45) they used only had the 2 position hammer. Either the hammer was cocked and ready to fire or else the hammer firing pin was resting on the chamber. Because of missfire problems with a bouncing around or dropped pistol or something hitting or bumping the hammer, they couldn't leave the hammer sitting on a live round so they only loaded it with five rounds and left the hammer on an empty chamber. They also had the same missfire problems carrying around a pistol that was cocked and ready to fire. Didn't take much to accidently set one off especially riding a horse. Sometime later but still not available to the troops of 7th on June 25, Colt modified them by adding another notch to the firing mechanism to create a half-cocked position where the gun won't go off and you could load a full 6 rounds. Hence the saying about don't go off half cocked. Either way, they were still single action which requires hand cocking the hammer. When the double action was invented, you could then make the hammer go back first when you started to pull the trigger. The 1874 Springfield 45/55 carbine (which was modified in 75 or 76 but after the 7th got theirs) they carried had the same type of 2 position trigger. That is why they didn't carry them loaded and accordingly would have stopped just before battle to load their carbines or else and unless they were going to dismount as skirmishers where they could load then. I know you know all this but others might not. bc
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Post by El Crab on Feb 4, 2012 21:41:13 GMT -6
What is this, Jeopardy? Everything here but the $64,000 question. I think Fred deserves $64,000 just for being gracious enough in answering all of these on this discussion forum. Any one of them probably deserves a separate discussion. Lonewulf, you mentioned something about Mitch Bouyer and a bloody kettle. That is the first I heard of it. What is the deal with that account? bc I dunno, the guy is fairly knowledgeable and has yet to ask a really stupid question. I'd rather have him posting 10 valid general questions in one thread than 10 new threads. The Mitch Bouyer thing is clearly the Isaiah Dorman death/corpse account. Lonewulf has the two mixed up, methinks. The only kettle related stories are Dorman's body found with a kettle next to it, with presumably his blood inside. And a few severed heads under a few kettles in the abandoned village site.
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Post by El Crab on Feb 4, 2012 21:54:44 GMT -6
The little vignette about the trooper pulling his Colt while being shot is interesting, but I've always felt it was more likely him being shot with his own gun. Was it common for a trooper to cock the hammer as they draw the pistol? Seems like a good way to occasionally blow a hole in your lower extremities. Besides, they usually wore the Colt butt forward, so I just don't think it is the most likely explanation. I'd say it's more likely he was shot while on the ground and the bullet went through and through and impacted in the ground. Scott, the 1873 Colt SAA (single action army) (also called the Model P Peacemaker and Colt 45) they used only had the 2 position hammer. Either the hammer was cocked and ready to fire or else the hammer firing pin was resting on the chamber. Because of missfire problems with a bouncing around or dropped pistol or something hitting or bumping the hammer, they couldn't leave the hammer sitting on a live round so they only loaded it with five rounds and left the hammer on an empty chamber. They also had the same missfire problems carrying around a pistol that was cocked and ready to fire. Didn't take much to accidently set one off especially riding a horse. Sometime later but still not available to the troops of 7th on June 25, Colt modified them by adding another notch to the firing mechanism to create a half-cocked position where the gun won't go off and you could load a full 6 rounds. Hence the saying about don't go off half cocked. Either way, they were still single action which requires hand cocking the hammer. When the double action was invented, you could then make the hammer go back first when you started to pull the trigger. The 1874 Springfield 45/55 carbine (which was modified in 75 or 76 but after the 7th got theirs) they carried had the same type of 2 position trigger. That is why they didn't carry them loaded and accordingly would have stopped just before battle to load their carbines or else and unless they were going to dismount as skirmishers where they could load then. I know you know all this but others might not. bc I knew some of that, but there's still a little bit of new info for me in your post. Appreciate it. I will say that it wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility that a trooper at Marker 174, under pressure, might have yanked his Colt out while simultaneously cocking the hammer, as he might feel a bit like hurrying. But again, with the butt forward method of wearing a Colt, it wouldn't be pointed straight down as this happened. My immediate thought when reading that info in the various archaeology books was that the vertically impacted bullet was a bullet fired straight down into a dead or dying trooper's body. At that range, it almost assuredly would've gone through and through and impacted in the ground beneath him.
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Post by Moltke on Feb 10, 2012 7:50:56 GMT -6
What was the Indian thought process behind the Mitch B, blood kettle mutilation? Do you mean the story about a kettle of blood found next to Isaiah Dorman's corpse? Yes, that was my error. As I was throwing my questions at Fred Gatling style ... a round must have misfired. An example of that tangent thing, I watched No Country For Old Men years ago. Liked it so much that I read the book. Loved that. Then I needed to read another Cormac McCarthy book. So I read Blood Meridian, since it was about scalphunters. LOVED IT. In fact, it's my favourite book. Anyway, read up on it, saw a few lectures about it online, and it's compared to Moby Dick. So I read up on Moby Dick a little, saw there was a book on the true story that inspired Melville. Read that and loved it. So now I've been picking up books on America's early years on the sea and various maritime/exploration disasters of the 18th century. That describes my history itch to the letter Now that I have a smartphone it's even worse ... no matter where i'm at, what I'm reading, watching, hearing, or just randomly thinking ... I can search, link, and even the slightest event can suddenly explode into a dozen books requested thus setting up the entire cycle again. As for the Zulu War, you got a friend in me. I'm no expert, but I find it to be fascinating. I have a few books to read on the subject and if you ever wanna chat it up, feel free to msg me and I'll send you my email addy. Would love to chat it up ... Have you read some of the newer works from a Brit named Mike Snook? His books on Rorkes Drift and especially 'How can man die Better' were fantastic IMHO. Consider this a PM, as I guessing few reading this care to hear about our ZW opinions.
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Post by Moltke on Feb 10, 2012 8:00:54 GMT -6
What is this, Jeopardy? Everything here but the $64,000 question. I think Fred deserves $64,000 just for being gracious enough in answering all of these on this discussion forum. Any one of them probably deserves a separate discussion. Lonewulf, you mentioned something about Mitch Bouyer and a bloody kettle. That is the first I heard of it. What is the deal with that account? bc Trust me, it's appreciated. And if I happen to win the Powerball this weekend I would be happy to spread some of my appreciate around and write Fred a check for $64K .. in the mean time all that I can offer is the worth gratitude of a distant LBH novice. As for the account ... my mistake. I was leading with a question about Bouyer but was interrupted and my question changed to one about Isiah D. And I was even mistak en in my mistake as it was his coffee pot/cup that were said to be filled with his blood ... not a "kettle". I'd rather have him posting 10 valid general questions in one thread than 10 new threads. Thanks El Crab. This was/is my thought process. I didn't want to litter up the boards with new topics on my likely basic questions. The second Fred or anyone get sicks of my LBH trivia game show I can attempt a more specific thread based strategy.
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Post by markland on Feb 10, 2012 9:00:43 GMT -6
if that's the case, you'd be well advised not to get a Kindle or other e-reader with 3G or wireless connectivity. For example, I was reading a fantasy novel set during the Byzantine Empire era with Belisarius as the protagonist which led to a history of the empire which led to the siege of Malta which led to the battle of Lepanto.
Billy
P.S. Ignore BC's gripes. It was likely caused by his reading DC's blog and momentarily channeling DC.
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