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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 20, 2011 3:56:50 GMT -6
Hi, I had just finished a book called, ''Where Custer Fell'', and there is a segment on E Company's fight in the Basin area near the South Skirmish Line, it Say's (and I quote) Stands in Timber: the Soldiers where dismounted and the Cheyenne Suicide Boys made there attack, this scattered the Grey Soldiers Horses, more Warriors joined in the attack from the North and South, and the Grey Horses Soldiers ran to the big Ravine. Now if this account is valid (which we don't know for sure) it sounds as if, Smith was wounded and take to the HQ for treatment, and E Coy where on the defensive in the area which Stand in Timber Say's he seen them, the Suicide Boys attack scare and away the horses, this causes panic, the rest of the warriors buoyed by this, take to the offensive, they drive between the Troopers and separate them from Custer who is further up on the rise, the Troopers from E Coy who survive decide to run for the Ravine for cover, some may have broken through back to the HQ, and some where killed in the area where they fought, the men who got to the Ravine where finished off, I say this because most of the bodies found in the Deep Ravine where from E Coy. Maybe just maybe, the line of markers from Last Stand Hill, could be from men who thought that E Coy where still fighting down in the Ravine and they tried to do the similar thing, get to the Ravine for some cover and some safety. Just a Theory that come to me last night, I don't know if you guys have ever considered this before, maybe you have. Regards Ian.
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Post by montrose on Sept 20, 2011 4:30:12 GMT -6
E Company launched a counterattack. They moved as a body. So there was no panic.
Smith remained with HHD, so he was likely wounded before the attack.
What was the purpose of this attack?
Option One. Obtain defensive position for the unit after losing horses.
Option Two. Local counterattack to push Indians away from Yates Bn.
Option Three. Clear Indians away from area, to allow a patrol of mounted messengers to reach regimental rear body.
Option Four. Attack to assist Keough Bn survivors. (I know this is ludicrous, since they went completely the wrong direction, but we have had posters make this claim).
Option Five. Assist the C Company attack vicinity Finley Finckle Ridge. This has been discussed. There is no possible way this has any substance. Range alone shows this is ridiculous.
It is most probable that E Company committed an attack as an organized body, under the command and control of the company surviving officer LT Sturgis and their first sergeant. They moved together, and died together.
The challenge is that they moved so far from F Co, that the two units were out of support range of one another.
So what happened?
LTC Custer and/or CPT Yates made a bad tactical decision.
E Company leadership executed local attack, and then decided to continue to more defensible ground at Deep Ravine. This means they decided not to return to main body.
Unit was ordered to go to DR, as it was better terrain because they had lost horses.
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Post by wild on Sept 20, 2011 5:52:44 GMT -6
It is most probable that E Company committed an attack as an organized body The offensive capibility of a lone unsupported company of 40 men is zero. The possibiity of inflicting casualities by gun fire while mounted is almost zero. The shock potential of 40 troopers is zero. The possibiity of rallying a forlorn isolated spent charge is zero.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 20, 2011 6:45:16 GMT -6
Hi Richard & Dan, thanks for the input, there where so many NCOs found in this area from E Coy that they must have fought here as a unit, I don't know how far they where from F Coy and the HQ, and having lost there Co they where down to 37 men max, if they fought in Skirmish lone (which we don't know) if you take out the horses holders it narrows it down to maybe about 30 men to defend an area which could be attacked from many sides, as Richard Say's, the Company alone is to small, and as Dan also states, a bad tactical decision. But did the men who tried to run from Last stand hill, try to contact the remains of E Coy, or was it just the most likely place to run. Ian.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 20, 2011 7:58:41 GMT -6
If the horses are gone its time to fight on foot and with overwhelming enemy forces they should be looking for a good defensive location. Going on the offense to clear the way to a good defensive position sounds about right to me. My two cents
AZ Ranger
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Post by fred on Sept 20, 2011 8:41:27 GMT -6
E Company launched a counterattack. They moved as a body. So there was no panic. Totally agree. Agree. Do not think so. Do not think so. Quite possible. Agree: ludicrous. Agree: ridiculous. Absolutely agree. Correct. But possibly unavoidable. It may have been done to clear an area in the hopes that F Company could follow. Possibly a leap-frog action toward the perceived safety of the river. I doubt this. By this time Deep Ravine had been recognized as the main ingress route to the battlefield for the Indians. One would want to steer as clear from this as possible, maintaining the high ground in the hopes that the dust and confusion would mask intent. Entering Deep Ravine would be like a cow entering the slaughterhouse: no escape... and you are not amongst friends! My bet is still a move to the river and perceived safety. Again, I doubt seriously they were ordered to go into the ravine. I think, ultimately, they wound up there, but only because they were pushed there by overwhelming force coming off Cemetery Ridge. As for the horses, they had no choice. Few were left. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 20, 2011 8:44:32 GMT -6
Hi Fred/Steve, just been looking around and a guy called Minhno Say's in his book the ''Mystery of E Troop'' that everyone was looking in the wrong place for the men of E Coy, they where in a place called Cemetery Ravine, so dose that place E Coy on Cemetery Hill before they where attacked ?.
Fred you beat me to it about Cemetery hill, I was about to post and your reply came out first.
Ian.
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Post by fred on Sept 20, 2011 8:47:58 GMT -6
The offensive capibility of a lone unsupported company of 40 men is zero. So what would you have them do? Sit on the hilltop and weep? Let's see now... no Indians died during Reno's "charge" to the rear...? According to several Indian eye-witnesses, the initial "shock" of the C Company charge scattered Indians all over the place... 37 men on horseback. It didn't work, ultimately, for the same reason nothing worked that day: too many Indians!So we should do nothing...? C'mon Wild, you're smarter than this. You are just using gas here to post silliness. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Sept 20, 2011 8:52:09 GMT -6
If the horses are gone its time to fight on foot and with overwhelming enemy forces they should be looking for a good defensive location. Going on the offense to clear the way to a good defensive position sounds about right to me. My two cents Make it a double-eagle. Doesn't seem like they had a lot of options. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 20, 2011 8:56:40 GMT -6
Fred, when do you think all this took place (the E Coy defeat), was it at the same time as Keogh's Wing started to collapse ?. Ian.
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Post by fred on Sept 20, 2011 9:05:25 GMT -6
Ian,
Michno's theory of the E Company has been largely discounted, if not disproven. It holds no water. Greg's a good fellow, but I think he tries to stir things up a bit because of the controversy his ideas will generate. I use a lot of his work in my own, but he is not always correct... in my opinion.
Again, let's not complicate this thing. Men fearing they are about to die seek some sort of shelter or safety. Training and experience teaches soldiers that it is more difficult to dislodge them from high ground than from "valleys." A soldier's natural inclination, therefore, is to seek high ground. That's why bodies were found on the SSL and not necessarily in the basin, which was the most direct route into Deep Ravine.
If the high ground fails-- and there was higher ground to the north, i. e., Cemetery Ridge... occupied by Indians-- then one heads to the next most perceived source of safety, i. e., depth and cover and concealment. Unfortunately, this was also occupied by Indians, and once in there, almost impossible to get out of, especially since there were so many warriors already there intent upon killing.
No one argues the move off LSH was desperate indeed, but it seemed to be better than merely hanging around. To my way of thinking, there was probably less than a 1 in 1,000 chance of anyone getting through, but you do what you can and you sell your life dearly.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 20, 2011 9:13:57 GMT -6
Thanks Fred, (from the same article) Hare testified that the E Company men were shot in the back. Whilst this might suggest a surprise attack from the rear. I wonder if he suggested that this happened on Cemetery Hill. Ian.
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Post by fred on Sept 20, 2011 9:15:13 GMT -6
... when do you think all this took place (the E Coy defeat), was it at the same time as Keogh's Wing started to collapse? My work has the Keogh fight beginning with the C Company charge at 3:44 PM and ending with Crazy Horse's charge westward, all but mopping up finished by 4:15 PM. Custer began moving up to the knoll after being overrun around 4:09 PM. That move was finished as Yates' men began arriving from the basin area. I figure E Company's move off LSH would have occurred around 4:25 PM. Since most were on foot, they probably only made between 550 to 875 yards before being stopped. Their advance would have ended around 4:31 PM and I would think that the whole thing ended not much more than nine or 10 minutes later. And I have spilled too much of my theories. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 20, 2011 9:28:08 GMT -6
That's pretty dam close Fred, it looks as if it all went pear shaped at the same time, give or take a few minutes, thanks for sharing you data Fred, I have been lucky today, being able to communicate in real time, usually I have to wait till the next day for any replies to my posts, due to the time difference, I cannot get near the computer after 5 pm our time, when the kids take over, thanks for keeping in touch. Ian.
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Post by zekesgirl on Sept 20, 2011 11:10:15 GMT -6
We'll still buy your book, Fred, no matter how many theories you spill.
Possible scenario: The E Co. charge was to clear a path for Butler/Foley to make a last chance run for help.
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